Flagrant T or not?

[Berkut]

In the interest of a little more context, this was a very ugly game. The home team racked up something like 38 fouls, and 95% of them were garbage - reaches, over-agressive play, stupid crap. A T was called on a player for complaining about calls, and certainly a couple more could have (should have?) been called. The game was generally one of those deals where you are doing your best to just manage the train wreck. Home team lost 40-80.

The reason the comment bothered me is that the attitude of the assistant was so clearly reflected in his players. They were getting their asses kicked, and the 40 point lead was not because they could not play defense, could not make a pass, and lacked fundamentals, but because the officials were screwing them. Just look at that foul count! We won't call fouls on the other team, and won't "let them just play" either.

To me, this assistant, sitting right next to his players, blaming this train wreck on the cheating officials was pretty much the casebook example of grossly poor sportsmanship and refusal to take any responsibility for their own actions.

All this, of course, is in hindsight. In the moment, I don't think I would have thought this through, and likely would have done the same thing as my partner.

[grunewar]

it occurs to me one of the things I like best about this Forum......

Every time I think I've called an "iffy" game, missed some calls, am disappointed by my performance, or thought I could do better, or had "one of "those" games, I can come here and y'all can trump it and make me feel better!

While I've had a few, I rarely: have coaches/players/fans go nuts, issue T's, have administrative nightmares, have that game that get totally out of control, etc. But, I am better prepared ffor it if they do!

Thanks for always cheering me up......kinda!

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Berkut

In the interest of a little more context, this was a very ugly game. The home team racked up something like 38 fouls, and 95% of them were garbage - reaches, over-agressive play, stupid crap. A T was called on a player for complaining about calls, and certainly a couple more could have (should have?) been called. The game was generally one of those deals where you are doing your best to just manage the train wreck. Home team lost 40-80.

"...reaches...?"

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Berkut

Reaches.

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

"Reaches?"

Berkut: I agree with BktBallRef. If you are an official, posting on this Forum, please speak only in "Officialese". That' the only way we will know, for sure, that you're a real official, not an impostor. If we all don't speak "Officialese", then the only way to tell us apart from coaches, fanboys, players, etc. will be for the Official Forum to issue us some type of identification badge, or something? Official Forum badges? Cool. When asked, we could just whip it out (no comments from Mark Padgett please.).

YouTube - Classic Movie Line #34

YouTube - We don't need no stinking badges!

[BillyMac]

C'mon guys. A coach, on the court, within hearing distance of players, and fans, accuses an official of cheating, and some of you argue that a flagrant foul is not warranted, by rule? You've got to be kidding me? Now I can certainly understand an argument regarding whether, or not, a flagrant foul is warranted in this situation, we all have different length fuses, but to argue that it's not warranted, by rule, is ridiculous. Do any of you really believe that the NFHS would not consider a coach publicly accusing an official of cheating, during the game, of being a flagrant act?

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Berkut: I agree with BktBallRef. If you are an official, posting on this Forum, please speak only in "Officialese".

Fair enough.

[Adam]

Whenever I hear a coach ask, "wasn't he reaching" or "wasn't that a reach", I know it's only a matter of time before he starts asking for an "over the back" call. Reaching is not a foul, and 99% of the time when they reach there's no contact. And half of that remaining 1%, there's no advantage.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Reaching is not a foul, and 99% of the time when they reach there's no contact.

I think that estimate is high. The reach I see so often, at all levels, is the defender making a steal attempt. Defender reaches across the body of the dribbler. Often the defender gets only ball with the hand, but makes considerable contact with his arm on the hip/leg/torso of the offensive player. Depending on your angle, the contact may be very difficult to see, let alone measure.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Reaching is not a foul, and 99% of the time when they reach there's no contact. And half of that remaining 1%, there's no advantage.

So, according to my trusty slide rule, 99.5% of the time it isn't a foul. Wow. That's a higher percentage than Ivory Soap (99 44/100%)

[Berkut]

I think you all know what I meant, I am talking about "reaching" fouls - when the defender is going for a steal, and is in fact creating contact with the dribbler.

And yes, reaching is not a foul. Reaching and making contact might be though...

And what I am talking about is reaching, and generally making a lot of contact, maybe with the offensive players face, hammering the ball loose, and then looking stunned, just STUNNED! that there is a whistle. Because we were, you know, cheating the kids and all.

I just love the tender and noble concern coaches have for their kids. They don't really care about winning or losing, they just want the kids to not be cheated by those dastardly officials!

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Whenever I hear a coach ask, "wasn't he reaching" or "wasn't that a reach", I know it's only a matter of time before he starts asking for an "over the back" call. Reaching is not a foul, and 99% of the time when they reach there's no contact. And half of that remaining 1%, there's no advantage.

I was doing some games with a first year official who coached for eight years. In fact, they were his first games.

He kept calling "over the back" on rebounding fouls. After the first, I explained that the call does not exist, and why it is important to avoid using the term.

He only did it three more times in the next two games though, although he looked rather chagrined each time he realized he was doing it again...:P

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Berkut

The home team racked up something like 38 fouls, and 95% of them were garbage - reaches, over-agressive play, stupid crap.

Don't tell us you called "reaching" fouls. I'm sure you mean they reached and caused contact illegally with their hands. And...what's the mechanic for "stupid crap"?

BTW - if any team personnel impugns my integrity by implying I'm cheating, it's automatically a flagrant foul, with possibly the exception of "call it both ways". In that case, I inform them that comment means I'm cheating in favor of one team over the other and I won't stand for it. If that doesn't shut them up about that issue, then it's a flagrant T.

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Don't tell us you called "reaching" fouls. I'm sure you mean they reached and caused contact illegally with their hands. And...what's the mechanic for "stupid crap"?

BTW - if any team personnel impugns my integrity by implying I'm cheating, it's automatically a flagrant foul, with possibly the exception of "call it both ways". In that case, I inform them that comment means I'm cheating in favor of one team over the other and I won't stand for it. If that doesn't shut them up about that issue, then it's a flagrant T.

"Reaches" - as in a colloquiolism meaning "randomly sticking your arm out into the dribbler in the vain hope that you can poke the ball out rather than actually playing any actual defense - usually from behind or the side as the guy is blowing past you..."

The stupid crap mechanic is usually a shrug of the shoulders, right?