Flagrant T or not?

[Berkut]

The other night in a boys JV game, my partner gave a T to the home bench after an assistant had something to say to him.

I asked what happened at half time, and he said the assistant started barking at him about a call, and he told the head coach that he would listen to him, but he needs to control his bench and we would not be listening to assistants.

The HC tells the assistant (with the ref standing right there) that he needs to be quiet, and the assistant says "I won't sit here and let him cheat our kids!".

My partner whacks him, and life goes on.

Now, after the game, I was thinking about this, and we were debating whether the comment was worthy of a ejection on its own. I lean towards the philosophy that you can maybe get away with questioning my judgment, but for an assistant (or anyone for that matter) to accuse me of cheating is beyond the pale, and warrants a trip to the locker room.

On the other hand, the T worked, to the extent that the assistant shut up for the rest of the game, so maybe a flagrant would be going above and beyond.

[just another ref]

Nah. Plain old T will suffice.

[Back In The Saddle]

Regular T

[tjones1]

Easy 2 for 1 special.... just a whack!

Indirect to the coach.... seat belt.

[BktBallRef]

Just to add...assistant coaches don't get warnings. Whack.

[Nevadaref]

Impugning the integrity of an official would earn a flagrant from me.

[BillyMac]

Tim Donaghy would have just ignored the comment, no technical.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Impugning the integrity of an official would earn a flagrant from me.

Sorry, rules don't warrant/support a Flagrant for this situation. Any consideration of a flagrant for this is a reach on the part of the official.

Once again, Nevada is making the game about him.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

Sorry, rules don't warrant/support a Flagrant for this situation. Any consideration of a flagrant for this is a reach on the part of the official.

Once again, Nevada is making the game about him.

Really, and you decide to impugn the motives of Nevada by insisting he's making it about him?

I've had my share of disagreements with Nevada, and this may or may not be one of them (I may have tossed him, especially after a warning), but he's not alone in this one. And, frankly, your shot here is just gratuitous.

Disagree with him if you want, but really?

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

Sorry, rules don't warrant/support a Flagrant for this situation.

I don't think that is the case at all - what constitutes a flagrant technical is clearly a matter of judgement, is it not? So how could the rules not "warrant/support" such a call? I can certainly understand the argument that a flagrant is not necessary, but I don't think it is really that cut and dried.

A flagrant foul (technical) is one defined by rule as "displaying unacceptable behavior". I think accusing an official of cheating certainly can be argued to fall under that definition.

[Berkut]

In the interest of a little more context, this was a very ugly game. The home team racked up something like 38 fouls, and 95% of them were garbage - reaches, over-agressive play, stupid crap. A T was called on a player for complaining about calls, and certainly a couple more could have (should have?) been called. The game was generally one of those deals where you are doing your best to just manage the train wreck. Home team lost 40-80.

The reason the comment bothered me is that the attitude of the assistant was so clearly reflected in his players. They were getting their asses kicked, and the 40 point lead was not because they could not play defense, could not make a pass, and lacked fundamentals, but because the officials were screwing them. Just look at that foul count! We won't call fouls on the other team, and won't "let them just play" either.

To me, this assistant, sitting right next to his players, blaming this train wreck on the cheating officials was pretty much the casebook example of grossly poor sportsmanship and refusal to take any responsibility for their own actions.

All this, of course, is in hindsight. In the moment, I don't think I would have thought this through, and likely would have done the same thing as my partner.

[grunewar]

it occurs to me one of the things I like best about this Forum......

Every time I think I've called an "iffy" game, missed some calls, am disappointed by my performance, or thought I could do better, or had "one of "those" games, I can come here and y'all can trump it and make me feel better!

While I've had a few, I rarely: have coaches/players/fans go nuts, issue T's, have administrative nightmares, have that game that get totally out of control, etc. But, I am better prepared ffor it if they do!

Thanks for always cheering me up......kinda!

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Berkut

In the interest of a little more context, this was a very ugly game. The home team racked up something like 38 fouls, and 95% of them were garbage - reaches, over-agressive play, stupid crap. A T was called on a player for complaining about calls, and certainly a couple more could have (should have?) been called. The game was generally one of those deals where you are doing your best to just manage the train wreck. Home team lost 40-80.

"...reaches...?"

[constable]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

Sorry, rules don't warrant/support a Flagrant for this situation. Any consideration of a flagrant for this is a reach on the part of the official.

Once again, Nevada is making the game about him.

Rule reference please.

This is going to be interesting.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Berkut

The home team racked up something like 38 fouls, and 95% of them were garbage - reaches, over-agressive play, stupid crap.

Don't tell us you called "reaching" fouls. I'm sure you mean they reached and caused contact illegally with their hands. And...what's the mechanic for "stupid crap"?

BTW - if any team personnel impugns my integrity by implying I'm cheating, it's automatically a flagrant foul, with possibly the exception of "call it both ways". In that case, I inform them that comment means I'm cheating in favor of one team over the other and I won't stand for it. If that doesn't shut them up about that issue, then it's a flagrant T.