Double Foul ? Rule 4-19-8 ?

[RefLarry]

A1 drives and releases a shot and is fouled by B1 as he shoots.The shot subsequently misses.The foul by B1 does not cause the ball to become dead. A1 returns both feet to to the floor. A1's momentum then causes him to crash through B2 who has legal guarding position. Team A had 7 fouls.

How would you handle this?

[tjones1]

You are right; the ball doesn't become dead on the foul by B1 .... so when does the ball become dead? Hint hint.. A1 is an airborne shooter.

[just another ref]

check 4.19.9

[Adam]

There's not quite enough information to rule on this, as there are two possibilities.
1) B1 fouls A1, shot is released, A1 lands, A1 fouls B2, shot ends.
You could call a false double foul on this. Each foul carries its own penalty, so A1 would shoot two free throws with the lane clear. Go to the other end, line them all up, and B2 shoots a one-and-one and you'll play on from there.

2) B1 fouls A1, shot is released, A1 lands, shot ends, A1 runs into B2. Once the try ends, the ball is dead when there is a shooting foul. A1's crash is ignored, and you'll only call the foul on B1, with A1 shooting two shots.

A1's crash would have to be pretty significant, and it would have to be impossible for me to assume B1 didn't affect A1's momentum in any way, for me to make this call.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by RefLarry

A1 drives and releases a shot and is fouled by B1 as he shoots.The shot subsequently misses.The foul by B1 does not cause the ball to become dead. A1 returns both feet to to the floor. A1's mommentum then causes him to crash through B2 who has legal guarding position. Team A had 7 fouls.

How would you handle this?

Sounds more like a false double foul, it seems. Casebook 4.19.9A contains elements similar to the sitch you cite. though not a precise parallel. Does that lend any clarity?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

There's not quite enough information to rule on this, as there are two possibilities.
1) B1 fouls A1, shot is released, A1 lands, A1 fouls B2, shot ends.
You could call a false double foul on this. Each foul carries its own penalty, so A1 would shoot two free throws with the lane clear. Go to the other end, line them all up, and B2 shoots a one-and-one and you'll play on from there.

2) B1 fouls A1, shot is released, A1 lands, shot ends, A1 runs into B2. Once the try ends, the ball is dead when there is a shooting foul. A1's crash is ignored, and you'll only call the foul on B1, with A1 shooting two shots.

A1's crash would have to be pretty significant, and it would have to be impossible for me to assume B1 didn't affect A1's momentum in any way, for me to make this call.

This is correct.

[tjones1]

I don't think it's a false double foul. The OP said A1 returned to the floor - therefore, the ball is dead. In 4.19.9 Situation A it states that A1 fouls B2 in returning to the floor.

Edit: I'm agreeing with #2 of Snaq's post.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by tjones1

I don't think it's a false double foul. The OP said A1 returned to the floor - therefore, the ball is dead. In 4.19.9 Situation A it states that A1 fouls B2 in returning to the floor.

The ball does NOT become dead when A1 returns to the floor. That only makes A1 no longer an airborne shooter. The ball becomes dead when the try ends--in this case when it becomes apparent that it will not be successful.

You are being confused by the fact that an airborne shooter can commit a personal foul during a dead ball. That is not a factor in this play.

[tjones1]

Ahhh, got ya Nevada...thanks.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by tjones1

Ahhh, got ya Nevada...thanks.

Good, I'm glad that you now see how your statement below isn't necessarily true. It might be, but it also might not be the case. The truth is that the two have nothing to do with each other.

Originally Posted by tjones1

I don't think it's a false double foul. The OP said A1 returned to the floor - therefore, the ball is dead. In 4.19.9 Situation A it states that A1 fouls B2 in returning to the floor.

Edit: I'm agreeing with #2 of Snaq's post.