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-   -   Double Foul ? Rule 4-19-8 ? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/56078-double-foul-rule-4-19-8-a.html)

RefLarry Wed Dec 23, 2009 09:00pm

Double Foul ? Rule 4-19-8 ?
 
A1 drives and releases a shot and is fouled by B1 as he shoots.The shot subsequently misses.The foul by B1 does not cause the ball to become dead. A1 returns both feet to to the floor. A1's momentum then causes him to crash through B2 who has legal guarding position. Team A had 7 fouls.

How would you handle this?

tjones1 Wed Dec 23, 2009 09:17pm

You are right; the ball doesn't become dead on the foul by B1 .... so when does the ball become dead? Hint hint.. A1 is an airborne shooter.

just another ref Wed Dec 23, 2009 09:19pm

false double foul
 
check 4.19.9

Adam Wed Dec 23, 2009 09:21pm

There's not quite enough information to rule on this, as there are two possibilities.
1) B1 fouls A1, shot is released, A1 lands, A1 fouls B2, shot ends.
You could call a false double foul on this. Each foul carries its own penalty, so A1 would shoot two free throws with the lane clear. Go to the other end, line them all up, and B2 shoots a one-and-one and you'll play on from there.

2) B1 fouls A1, shot is released, A1 lands, shot ends, A1 runs into B2. Once the try ends, the ball is dead when there is a shooting foul. A1's crash is ignored, and you'll only call the foul on B1, with A1 shooting two shots.

A1's crash would have to be pretty significant, and it would have to be impossible for me to assume B1 didn't affect A1's momentum in any way, for me to make this call.

Freddy Wed Dec 23, 2009 09:22pm

Fdf?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RefLarry (Post 645374)
A1 drives and releases a shot and is fouled by B1 as he shoots.The shot subsequently misses.The foul by B1 does not cause the ball to become dead. A1 returns both feet to to the floor. A1's mommentum then causes him to crash through B2 who has legal guarding position. Team A had 7 fouls.

How would you handle this?

Sounds more like a false double foul, it seems. Casebook 4.19.9A contains elements similar to the sitch you cite. though not a precise parallel. Does that lend any clarity?

Nevadaref Wed Dec 23, 2009 09:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 645380)
There's not quite enough information to rule on this, as there are two possibilities.
1) B1 fouls A1, shot is released, A1 lands, A1 fouls B2, shot ends.
You could call a false double foul on this. Each foul carries its own penalty, so A1 would shoot two free throws with the lane clear. Go to the other end, line them all up, and B2 shoots a one-and-one and you'll play on from there.

2) B1 fouls A1, shot is released, A1 lands, shot ends, A1 runs into B2. Once the try ends, the ball is dead when there is a shooting foul. A1's crash is ignored, and you'll only call the foul on B1, with A1 shooting two shots.

A1's crash would have to be pretty significant, and it would have to be impossible for me to assume B1 didn't affect A1's momentum in any way, for me to make this call.

This is correct.

tjones1 Wed Dec 23, 2009 09:25pm

I don't think it's a false double foul. The OP said A1 returned to the floor - therefore, the ball is dead. In 4.19.9 Situation A it states that A1 fouls B2 in returning to the floor.

Edit: I'm agreeing with #2 of Snaq's post.

Nevadaref Wed Dec 23, 2009 09:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjones1 (Post 645384)
I don't think it's a false double foul. The OP said A1 returned to the floor - therefore, the ball is dead. In 4.19.9 Situation A it states that A1 fouls B2 in returning to the floor.

The ball does NOT become dead when A1 returns to the floor. That only makes A1 no longer an airborne shooter. The ball becomes dead when the try ends--in this case when it becomes apparent that it will not be successful.

You are being confused by the fact that an airborne shooter can commit a personal foul during a dead ball. That is not a factor in this play.

tjones1 Wed Dec 23, 2009 09:30pm

Ahhh, got ya Nevada...thanks.

Nevadaref Wed Dec 23, 2009 09:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjones1 (Post 645387)
Ahhh, got ya Nevada...thanks.

Good, I'm glad that you now see how your statement below isn't necessarily true. It might be, but it also might not be the case. The truth is that the two have nothing to do with each other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjones1 (Post 645384)
I don't think it's a false double foul. The OP said A1 returned to the floor - therefore, the ball is dead. In 4.19.9 Situation A it states that A1 fouls B2 in returning to the floor.

Edit: I'm agreeing with #2 of Snaq's post.



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