2-pt or 3-pt on close shot at end of period.

8th grade tournament game(2 officials) at a neutral site this afternoon end of the 3rd Q. Ball stolen by B1 as time is running down, I'm new lead running about even with the ball when B1 takes a running jump shot right around 3-pt line. He had enough time to take another dribble before clock ran out and he surprised me when he pulled up earlier. I never saw where he left the ground so I couldn't help my partner with whether it was 3 or not. Partner originally signaled 3 but questioned whether it was 3 or not. I know I should have had a look at it and been able to help, but i had to tell him I had no idea. My partner is a 20+ year veteran and decided to ask the clock operator(impartial not associated with either team) what he thought. He thought it was a 2 pt shot, so we went with a 2pt shot.

My question is, Is the clock operator or table a tool that we have in this situation or should we have gone with my partners original call of a 3pt shot?

Please give me a rule reference if you have one.

Thanks.

[bob jenkins]

I don't know that there's a rules reference for this, but if in doubt, it was a 2.

[Mark Padgett]

If you're really not sure and one coach wants a 3 while the other wants a 2, just split the difference and call it a 2 1/2. Then everybody's happy.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

If you're really not sure and one coach wants a 3 while the other wants a 2, just split the difference and call it a 2 1/2. Then everybody's happy.

I was about to suggest that you possessed Solomon-like wisdom, until I realized that Solomon would have solved it by ordering both coaches to be cut in half.

[muxbule]

OK, BITS that made me laugh and then I thought cutting coaches in half is not a bad solution to some issues.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

If you're really not sure and one coach wants a 3 while the other wants a 2, just split the difference and call it a 2 1/2. Then everybody's happy.

The benefit of this ruling is that it dramatically increases the probability of.... no overtime!

[Tio]

The key on this play is if a crew member has definite knowledge whether the the try was a 2 or 3 pt. attempt. If you aren't sure, then you have to go with whatever the calling official has.

I think we all need to help on the last second shot and certainly use the monitor if it is available to you.

[constable]

Originally Posted by Tio

The key on this play is if a crew member has definite knowledge whether the the try was a 2 or 3 pt. attempt. If you aren't sure, then you have to go with whatever the calling official has.

I think we all need to help on the last second shot and certainly use the monitor if it is available to you.

If you don't have definite knowledge of a 3 point try, than it's a 2 point bucket.

Replay may only be used during a state/province championship.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jerry Blum

My question is, is the clock operator or table a tool that we have in this situation. Please give me a rule reference if you have one.

Jerry Blum: I've asked the same question, twice, on this Forum, and never got a citation stating that we could, or could not, utilize the table crew. Here was my situation from a few years ago:

My worst call of the year: Girls varsity. A few seconds to go in the first quarter. I'm the trail, responsible for the shot and the clock. A-1 attempts a three-pointer from my primary with no defender near her. Still no horn. I watch the flight of the ball. It clangs off the rim and bounces high above the rim. Still no horn. In a boys game, I would be watching for basket interference, but since it was a girls game, I decided to glance at the clock, due to the new definite time knowledge rule, in case of a rebounding foul. Tenths of a second left. I turn back to the ball and basket to see the ball enter the basket at the buzzer. I count the three-pointer to end the quarter.

A few Team B players politely tell me the ball hit a supporting wire. I can also tell from the reaction of the crowd that it probably hit the supporting wire. I go to my partner who was the lead, to see if he can help me. Of course he can't, which I already knew, because his responsibility is to keep his eyes down, looking for rebounding fouls. But I ask him anyway, to show the Team B head coach, who is questioning my call, that I'm trying to get as much information as possible. My partner says that he didn't see it hit the supporting wire. I tell the Team B head coach that I can't change a call without definite knowledge, and I say "I'm sorry if I missed it". He says, "Sorry doesn't take away the three points" and appears very upset with me.

In the locker room at halftime, the junior varsity officials, who had stayed to watch the varsity game, say that the ball did hit the supporting wire. Going onto the court after halftime, the Team B head coach apologizes for losing his temper, which never even approached the need for a technical foul. I accept his apology, and explain to him that I missed the ball touching the supporting wire because I had glanced at the clock to check the time. Before the second half started, all the members of the table crew, from both teams told me that the ball had hit the supporting wire.

My question: Since the scorers and the timer at the table are considered part of our officiating crew, could I have gone to them for help on this call at the end of the first quarter to correct the call ?

So I'll ask again. Does anyone have a reference, or a citation, that would allow us to ask the table crew for help with either of these two situations (three point line, ball hitting wire)?

[Back In The Saddle]

Crickets...

I take the silence to mean that nobody has "definite knowledge" of any such reference. I certainly don't recall any such ruling. You've been around a lot longer than I have. If there was such a ruling, you'd have heard about it.

We are required to consult the table crew if the horn fails to sound and there is a basket or foul "in the meantime". Beyond that, there isn't much said about specifically utilizing the table crew.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Beyond that, there isn't much said about specifically utilizing the table crew.

NFHS 2-1: Game and Table Officials:
ART. 2 The game officials shall be a referee and an umpire or a referee and two umpires who shall be assisted by an official timer and scorer.
ART. 3 The scorer and timer shall be located at the scorer’s and timer’s table on the side of the court. It is recommended that the official scorer and timer be seated next to each other.

Is the wording in this citation strong enough to give table "officials" some "power" other than helping out to decide if the horn sounded, or did not sound, before, during, or after, baskets, or fouls, for example, three point line situations, or a ball hitting a wire situation?

Now that you guys mention the assisting if the horn was supposed to have sounded or not that might be the situation I was thinking of.

[sseltser]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I don't know that there's a rules reference for this, but if in doubt, it was a 2.

I had a partner mention this once. It sounded odd, but I didn't think twice about it. Is this something that came from the rule change of adding the three point line? Any other reason why this is the case, as opposed to the opposite?

[Vinski]

Not sure if this is a definitive interpretation for the OP, but I think it’s enough to say that the officials can use the scorer and time when ever needed.

5.10.1 SITUATION D: There are six seconds left on the clock in the fourth quarter and the ball is out of bounds in the possession of Team A. The throw-in by A1 touches the referee on the court and then goes across the court and out of bounds. The timer permits two seconds to run off the clock. What recourse does the coach of either team have in such situation? RULING: Either coach may step to the scorer’s table and request a 60-second time-out and have the referee come to the table. The coach is permitted to do this under provisions of the coach’s rule. The referee shall come to the sideline and confer with one or both coaches and the timer about the matter; and if the referee has definite knowledge that there were six seconds on the clock when the ball was awarded to Team A for the throw-in, it is the responsibility of the referee to have the two seconds put back on the clock. The timer and scorer and the other official(s) can be used by the referee to gain definite information. If there is no mistake or if it cannot be rectified, the requesting team will be charged with a 60-second time-out. (5-11- 3 Exception b; 5-8-4; 10-5-1c)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Vinski

Not sure if this is a definitive interpretation for the OP, but I think it’s enough to say that the officials can use the scorer and time when ever needed. 5.10.1 SITUATION D... Either coach may step to the scorer’s table and request a 60-second time-out and have the referee come to the table. The coach is permitted to do this under provisions of the coach’s rule...The timer and scorer and the other official(s) can be used by the referee to gain definite information. If there is no mistake or if it cannot be rectified, the requesting team will be charged with a 60-second time-out. (5-11- 3 Exception b; 5-8-4; 10-5-1c)

Good citation, but I have a slightly off topic question. What rule requires that the coach request, or be charged with, a 60 second time out to correct such an error or mistake? I copied these citations from a recent thread (Thanks Nevadaref):

In the 2003-04 book it was 10-5-1 (b and c):
b. Confer with personnel at scorer's table to request a 60-second time-out for a correctable error, as in 2-10.
c. Confer with personnel at scorer's table to request a 60-second time-out to prevent or rectify a timing or scoring mistake or alternating possession mistake.

In 2004-05 it was changed:
10-5-1(b) Confer with personnel at scorer's table to request a 60-second time-out (or one 30-second time-out if that is the only type of time-out remaining) for a correctable error as in 2-10, or to prevent or rectify a timing or scoring mistake or alternating possession mistake.

In 2005-06 it was reorganized and clarified:
10-5-2 The head coach may also confer with personnel at scorer's table to request a 60-second time-out (or one 30-second time-out if that is the only type of time-out remaining) for a correctable error as in 2-10, or to prevent or rectify a timing or scoring mistake or alternating possession mistake.

In 2008-09 it was changed to the current version:
10-5-1(c) The head coach may stand and/or leave the coaching box to confer with personnel at the scorer’s table to request a time-out as in 5-8-4.

Note that any language specifically referring to a 60 second, or a 30 second, timeout has been eliminated.

Inquiring minds want to know.