A pass is a pass, a shot is a shot...

[bradfordwilkins]

Another pass/shot one that gets me --

A1 passes from outside the 3-point arc and the ball is deflected by B1 who is inside the 3-point arc; the deflection causes the ball to go into the hoop. Even though it was a pass, its still a 3 point field goal.

[jdmara]

I don't seem to be the only one that is having trouble justifying this legal/illegal act. I can't rationalize these plays... BTW, I have called this an illegal dribble while I was in college. I was specifically told this act was illegal but I'm not leaning one way or another now. I, honestly, just don't know.

-Josh

[APG]

Talked about at the NFHS forum recently


Ball against the backboard

[Scratch85]

I believe there are two ways for the alley-oop to be legal.

First, the pass off the backboard is a try. If it is judged to be a try, everyone knows why it is legal.

Second, if the player gathers the ball and establishes a pivot foot as in 4-44-3, the player can then release the ball on the pass before jumping off his non-pivot foot and dunking it.

I think case 4.44.3D(b) is considered a travel because the player (who has control and may establish a pivot foot) lifts both feet, restablishes the pivot foot and controls the ball again before it has touched or been touched by another player. This doesn't happen in the second situation above. The two actions allowed are a pass and a try. Both were done before either foot returned to the floor.

The release for the pass is legal and the neither foot returns to the floor until after the pass and try. If the player were to move his foot/feet in excess of the limits described in 4-44 it would be a travel as in 4.44.3D(b).

Someone help me decide if my logic is correct.

[Back In The Saddle]

So if we're going to consider this play to be a try...

NFHS 4-41-3 "The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball."

and

NCAA 4-71.3 "The try shall start when the player begins the motion that habitually precedes the release of the ball on a try. The ball does not need to leave the player’s hand. The arm might be held so that the player cannot throw; however, he or she may be making an attempt."

So then I suppose the try begins when the player begins to his motion to gather the ball for the throw off of the glass? In which case any illegal contact against the "shooter" from that moment on is a shooting foul?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

So if we're going to consider this play to be a try...

NFHS 4-41-3 "The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball."

and

NCAA 4-71.3 "The try shall start when the player begins the motion that habitually precedes the release of the ball on a try. The ball does not need to leave the player’s hand. The arm might be held so that the player cannot throw; however, he or she may be making an attempt."

So then I suppose the try begins when the player begins to his motion to gather the ball for the throw off of the glass? In which case any illegal contact against the "shooter" from that moment on is a shooting foul?

No...it is really two seperate tries....and there could be a foul on either one. Also, there is likely a gap between the two "tries" where A1 is not a shooter....after they have initially released the ball and are in contact with the floor and until the "rebound" the ball and start a new motion to shoot.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Talked about at the NFHS forum recently


Ball against the backboard

Thank you for making me aware for this thread. I don't know how I missed it, to be honest. Although, I don't stay as up-to-date on the NFHS board as well as I do this one.

With that said, I'm absolutely NOT trying to dig up ol' wounds and reopen them! I now accept that this play is legal!

But...What is a thrown ball considered (by rule) if it's judged to NOT be an attempt to score? To my knowledge (although limited) three things can be done with the ball, attempt a try, pass, and dribble.

Originally Posted by Shooting, Try, Tap (4-41 Art 2)

A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into a team’s own basket. A player is trying for goal when the player has the ball and in the official’s judgment is throwing or attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player’s hand as a foul could prevent release of the ball.

Originally Posted by Pass (4-31)

A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats or rolls the ball to another player.

Originally Posted by Dribble (4-15 Art 1)

A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times.

So if a player throws the ball against the backboard without an attempt to score, it cannot be a try. My definition it cannot be a pass because a pass is moving the ball from one player to another player. And it seems as though it could not be a dribble (by examining the case play) because you can dribble, shuffle your feet, and do the hokey pokey after you throw it off the glass.

Consequently, when a player throws the ball off the glance is player and/or team control retained and/or lost? What is A1 in the lane throws the ball off the glass so hard that it goes untouched into the backcourt, can this be retrieved by Team A legally? Just some thoughts

-Josh

[Back In The Saddle]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this whole thing too, but...

Your list of things you can do with the ball is pretty limited. A player may also tap the ball, bat the ball, kick the ball, hold the ball, strike the ball with a fist. Those are also all actions recognized by rule. Keep in mind while the rules specifically disallow some actions (e.g., kicking), and formally define some others (e.g., dribbling), they do not constitute a comprehensive listing of all allowed actions. For instance, a player may simply abandon the ball, a discussion we've had at least once here. Throwing the ball off his own backboard, I think, falls into this same category. It is not prohibited (and, in fact, the case book says it is legal). It could be part of a pass, or a try (like the alley oop to himself in the OP), that is a judgment the official needs to make. But, if not, then it's...nothing we need to worry about. I suppose that means he could spend the entire quarter just bouncing the ball off the glass.

As for team and player control, those are well defined. If the player is not holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds, it's not in player control. However, team control is not lost until the ball is dead, a try, or a player of the other team secures control. So while the player is bouncing the ball off the glass, there is no player control but team control still exists. Unless you judge it to be a try.

[Scratch85]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

I suppose that means he could spend the entire quarter just bouncing the ball off the glass.

If player A1 tosses the ball repeatedly off his/her own backboard while keeping his/her pivot foot in contact with the floor . . . it is legal.

Isn't this, "repeatedly off his/her own backboard", the same as "from one hand to the other" ? If so, and I believe it is, then 4.44.3D(a) tells us this is legal.

The difference between (a) and (b) in 4.44.3D is the pivot foot movement. That is why I have decided that as long as the foot/feet do not move in excess of the prescribed limits stated in 4-44-3, that is one way an alley-oop to yourself, off your own backboard, would be legal.

[Back In The Saddle]

Like I said previously, I'm still trying to get my head around this one too...

48 hours ago, I would have agreed with you. However, it now appears to me that tossing the ball off your own backboard is ... nothing. The rules acknowledge it, and tell us a little about this activity (e.g., it is legal, it is not part of a dribble). But that's about all they say about it. Trying to fill that void by shoehorning this action into another rule which regulates a different activity is incorrect. You may as well argue that the thrower moving from the designated spot is traveling, it's the same (incorrect) logic.

Without posting all of the relevant text...
Traveling is moving beyond the prescribed limits while holding the ball. There is one exception, and that involves placing the ball on the floor while getting up.

Dribbling involves pushing the ball to the floor. The opponent's backboard is considered part of the floor for this purpose. One's own backboard is not. It is simply "equipment".

Passing involves another player, or at least the intent to throw the ball to another player.

And we acknowledge that we're not talking about a try.

So what does that leave? It leaves an activity that is not regulated by rule.

As for the "self alley oop"... the NCAA case book says this is legal and is a try. The NFHS case book does not actually say this, but there is a case situation that is close that is deemed legal. It is activity that is otherwise widely accepted to be legal. The rules do not prohibit it.

Camron has suggested that the "self alley oop" is actually two tries. I'm not convinced, but I have no basis for argument. I think the whole process of throwing it off the glass, catching, and dunking constitutes one play and is therefore all part of the same try. But I have no basis for my argument either.

My personal feeling on the whole subject? I'm putting away my shoehorn.