[NFHS Rules] Sequence of events

[Stat-Man]

MS Girls

Team B is whistled for a shooting foul against A.
Immediately after the shooting foul call, the second official notices Team A has 6 players on the court and calls the T.

Team B shoots two free throws and gets the ball.

Official calling the T says Team A wasn't entitled to the free throws for the shooting since they were playing with 6 players.

I do know that the T for 6 players is called when discovered, but I didn't think it nullified any other action.

I was under the impression that when you have a personal foul followed by a T, the fouls are administered in the order in which they occurred/were called. In this situation, I was under the impression Team A got to shoot the shooting foul and Team B would shoot the technical free throws and get the ball at half court.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Stat-Man

Official notices Team A has 6 players on the court and calls the T. Official calling the T says Team A wasn't entitled to the free throws for the shooting since they were playing with 6 players.

This official would be wrong.

Originally Posted by Stat-Man

I do know that the T for 6 players is called when discovered, but I didn't think it nullified any other action. I was under the impression that when you have a personal foul followed by a T, the fouls are administered in the order in which they occurred/were called. In this situation, I was under the impression Team A got to shoot the shooting foul and Team B would shoot the technical free throws and get the ball at half court.

"You Are Correct Sir!"



Penalized if discovered while being violated: Having more than five team members participating simultaneously, if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball. If it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after the ball became live following the first dead ball, it is too late to assess any penalty.

[BillyMac]

Six players versus five players. Guess who gets the easy dunk. Good example of how fair is not always the same as the legal application of the rules:

Blazers score with six players on court : InsideHoops

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Penalized if discovered while being violated: Having more than five team members participating simultaneously, if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball. If it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after the ball became live following the first dead ball, it is too late to assess any penalty.

When did excess of 5 become a CE? Surley the Master of Myths was joking?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ch1town

when did excess of 5 become a ce?

ce ???

[mbyron]

Correctable error.

48 hours are about up, guess this one has gone to a cold case...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

When did excess of 5 become a correctable error? Surely the Master of Myths was joking?

It's not a correctable error, but, as in a few other administrative-type technical fouls, there is a time limit. Please review these casebook plays:

10.2.2 SITUATION: During a live ball and with the clock running, substitute A6 enters the court. RULING: A technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball.

10.1.6 SITUATION: With Team A leading 51 to 50, a held ball is called. A6 properly reports and enters the game. Time is then called by Team A. The clock shows two seconds remaining in the game. After play is resumed by a throw-in, the officials: (a) recognize that A has six players competing, but cannot get the clock stopped; or (b) do not notice Team A has six players on the court. Following the throw-in, time expires. Team B now reports to the officials that Team A had six players on the court. RULING: In (a), since one of the officials had knowledge that Team A had six players participating simultaneously and this was detected prior to time expiring, a technical foul is assessed against Team A. In (b), since it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after time had expired, it is too late to assess any penalty.

[Adam]

I'm pretty sure 6 players must be discovered while being violated. If the official didn't notice the 6 players until the ball was already dead, he's wrong to call the T. Not a good night for this official, IMO.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm pretty sure 6 players must be discovered while being violated. If the official didn't notice the 6 players until the ball was already dead, he's wrong to call the T. Not a good night for this official, IMO.

That's what I was thinking. Both claims, actually.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

10.2.2 SITUATION: During a live ball and with the clock running, substitute A6 enters the court. RULING: A technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball.

Note that this situation is NOT for participating with 6 but for an illegal entry/substitution...something they can even be pointed out to the officials by the scorekeeper during the next dead ball. This would be a T whether there were 5 on the court or 6 on the court as a result of the illegal entry. If there are 6, you could technically have two different infractions if A6 "participates".

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm pretty sure 6 players must be discovered while being violated. If the official didn't notice the 6 players until the ball was already dead, he's wrong to call the T.

Not quite. Team A has six players participating. A violation, or a foul is called. During the dead ball time immediately following the violation, or the foul, Team A notices that is has an extra player on the court and pulls that player off the court. At that time, as the sixth player is walking off the court, the infraction is recognized by the official, before the ball becomes live. At this time it is not too late to penalize for the sixth player. If the ball had become live after this situation, and then the table yelled to the officials that there were six Team A players participating a few seconds ago, then it would be too late to penalize.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Note that this situation is not for participating with 6 but for an illegal entry/substitution. If there are 6, you could technically have two different infractions if A6 participates.

Maybe we could call two technicals, but would we? And if we did call two technicals, would the rules back us up? Citations please.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Not quite. Team A has six players participating. A violation, or a foul is called. During the dead ball time immediately following the violation, or the foul, Team A notices that is has an extra player on the court and pulls that player off the court. At that time, as the sixth player is walking off the court, the infraction is recognized by the official, before the ball becomes live. At this time it is not too late to penalize for the sixth player. If the ball had become live after this situation, and then the table yelled to the officials that there were six Team A players participating a few seconds ago, then it would be too late to penalize.

Thanks, I see what you're saying B Mac. I like how the rulebook words it though, penalized if discovered while being violated. That whole first dead ball after becoming live crap sounds like a CE to me. I hate CEs

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Not quite. Team A has six players participating. A violation, or a foul is called. During the dead ball time immediately following the violation, or the foul, Team A notices that is has an extra player on the court and pulls that player off the court. At that time, as the sixth player is walking off the court, the infraction is recognized by the official, before the ball becomes live. At this time it is not too late to penalize for the sixth player. If the ball had become live after this situation, and then the table yelled to the officials that there were six Team A players participating a few seconds ago, then it would be too late to penalize.

Billy, I disagree with this. I dont' see what rule basis you have for calling it if you didn't actually see A6 participating. The rule is very clear that it must be discovered while being violated in order to be penalized. There's no wiggle room.

Especially, in your scenario, where the official doesn't notice it until he sees A6 walking off the court. You do not know positively how he got on the court nor how long he's been there. It's too late.