[NFHS Rules] Sequence of events

[Adam]

I'm pretty sure 6 players must be discovered while being violated. If the official didn't notice the 6 players until the ball was already dead, he's wrong to call the T. Not a good night for this official, IMO.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm pretty sure 6 players must be discovered while being violated. If the official didn't notice the 6 players until the ball was already dead, he's wrong to call the T. Not a good night for this official, IMO.

That's what I was thinking. Both claims, actually.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm pretty sure 6 players must be discovered while being violated. If the official didn't notice the 6 players until the ball was already dead, he's wrong to call the T.

Not quite. Team A has six players participating. A violation, or a foul is called. During the dead ball time immediately following the violation, or the foul, Team A notices that is has an extra player on the court and pulls that player off the court. At that time, as the sixth player is walking off the court, the infraction is recognized by the official, before the ball becomes live. At this time it is not too late to penalize for the sixth player. If the ball had become live after this situation, and then the table yelled to the officials that there were six Team A players participating a few seconds ago, then it would be too late to penalize.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Not quite. Team A has six players participating. A violation, or a foul is called. During the dead ball time immediately following the violation, or the foul, Team A notices that is has an extra player on the court and pulls that player off the court. At that time, as the sixth player is walking off the court, the infraction is recognized by the official, before the ball becomes live. At this time it is not too late to penalize for the sixth player. If the ball had become live after this situation, and then the table yelled to the officials that there were six Team A players participating a few seconds ago, then it would be too late to penalize.

Thanks, I see what you're saying B Mac. I like how the rulebook words it though, penalized if discovered while being violated. That whole first dead ball after becoming live crap sounds like a CE to me. I hate CEs

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Not quite. Team A has six players participating. A violation, or a foul is called. During the dead ball time immediately following the violation, or the foul, Team A notices that is has an extra player on the court and pulls that player off the court. At that time, as the sixth player is walking off the court, the infraction is recognized by the official, before the ball becomes live. At this time it is not too late to penalize for the sixth player. If the ball had become live after this situation, and then the table yelled to the officials that there were six Team A players participating a few seconds ago, then it would be too late to penalize.

Billy, I disagree with this. I dont' see what rule basis you have for calling it if you didn't actually see A6 participating. The rule is very clear that it must be discovered while being violated in order to be penalized. There's no wiggle room.

Especially, in your scenario, where the official doesn't notice it until he sees A6 walking off the court. You do not know positively how he got on the court nor how long he's been there. It's too late.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Billy, I disagree with this. I don't see what rule basis you have for calling it if you didn't actually see A6 participating. The rule is very clear that it must be discovered while being violated in order to be penalized. There's no wiggle room. Especially, in your scenario, where the official doesn't notice it until he sees A6 walking off the court. You do not know positively how he got on the court nor how long he's been there. It's too late.

Good point. Let me clarify. What I'm trying to say is that this infraction may be called during live ball activity, or during dead ball activity, as long as the officials are sure that six players participated. The officials don't have to know how he got on the court, or how long he participated, as long as they are certain that he participated. Once the ball becomes live with five participants, it's too late to penalize. How's that?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Good point. Let me clarify. What I'm trying to say is that this infraction may be called during live ball activity, or during dead ball activity, as long as the officials are sure that six players participated. The officials don't have to know how he got on the court, or how long he participated, as long as they are certain that he participated. Once the ball becomes live with five participants, it's too late to penalize. How's that?

I'll have to think about that, but the rule says "discovered while being violated," so I have to think that unless you actually see the participation, you cannot penalize.

Now, that's not to say I wouldn't call this if, just after a violation whistle by my partner, I count and see 6 standing on the floor and know for a fact that no one came on after his whistle.

And, while common sense would dictate that there are time constraints on how long you can hold off on penalizing, consider the following scenario:

1. A has 6 players during live play.
2. U1 whistles an OOB violation against the defense just as U2 realizes the 6th player is playing.
3. A6 sits down immediately.
4. U1 puts the ball in play.
5. U2 gets his head out of his a$$ and blows his whistle to get that 6 player T.

Common sense says one thing, but what rule says it's too late?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

1. A has 6 players during live play.
2. U1 whistles an OOB violation against the defense just as U2 realizes the 6th player is playing.
3. A6 sits down immediately.
4. U1 puts the ball in play.
5. U2 gets his head out of his a$$ and blows his whistle to get that 6 player T.
Common sense says one thing, but what rule says it's too late?

No rule that know of, just an interpretation: 10.2.2 SITUATION: During a live ball and with the clock running, substitute A6 enters the court. RULING: A technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

No rule that know of, just an interpretation: 10.2.2 SITUATION: During a live ball and with the clock running, substitute A6 enters the court. RULING: A technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball.

I do remember reading this once before! Now I see where you were coming from, but it only pertains to that sitch. I still think it's useless. If, for some reason we don't count our players & make eye contact prior to the ball becoming live, if 6 are still participating, we hit 'em live while being observed.
What was the purpose of adding that one with so many others unsolved mysteries...

Honestly, I believe the sound official/crew would get that when the 6th player steps on to participate.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

No rule that know of, just an interpretation: 10.2.2 SITUATION: During a live ball and with the clock running, substitute A6 enters the court. RULING: A technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball.

that's for a substitution T, not for a 6 player T. Different rules, Billy.