The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball
Register FAQ Community Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 28, 2009, 07:35pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
I'm pretty sure 6 players must be discovered while being violated. If the official didn't notice the 6 players until the ball was already dead, he's wrong to call the T. Not a good night for this official, IMO.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 28, 2009, 08:42pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 7,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
I'm pretty sure 6 players must be discovered while being violated. If the official didn't notice the 6 players until the ball was already dead, he's wrong to call the T. Not a good night for this official, IMO.
That's what I was thinking. Both claims, actually.
__________________
Cheers,
mb
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 29, 2009, 06:32am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 23,378
Dead Ball, Live Ball, Time Limit ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
I'm pretty sure 6 players must be discovered while being violated. If the official didn't notice the 6 players until the ball was already dead, he's wrong to call the T.
Not quite. Team A has six players participating. A violation, or a foul is called. During the dead ball time immediately following the violation, or the foul, Team A notices that is has an extra player on the court and pulls that player off the court. At that time, as the sixth player is walking off the court, the infraction is recognized by the official, before the ball becomes live. At this time it is not too late to penalize for the sixth player. If the ball had become live after this situation, and then the table yelled to the officials that there were six Team A players participating a few seconds ago, then it would be too late to penalize.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 29, 2009, 08:44am
Ch1town
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Not quite. Team A has six players participating. A violation, or a foul is called. During the dead ball time immediately following the violation, or the foul, Team A notices that is has an extra player on the court and pulls that player off the court. At that time, as the sixth player is walking off the court, the infraction is recognized by the official, before the ball becomes live. At this time it is not too late to penalize for the sixth player. If the ball had become live after this situation, and then the table yelled to the officials that there were six Team A players participating a few seconds ago, then it would be too late to penalize.
Thanks, I see what you're saying B Mac. I like how the rulebook words it though, penalized if discovered while being violated. That whole first dead ball after becoming live crap sounds like a CE to me. I hate CEs
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 29, 2009, 10:27am
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Not quite. Team A has six players participating. A violation, or a foul is called. During the dead ball time immediately following the violation, or the foul, Team A notices that is has an extra player on the court and pulls that player off the court. At that time, as the sixth player is walking off the court, the infraction is recognized by the official, before the ball becomes live. At this time it is not too late to penalize for the sixth player. If the ball had become live after this situation, and then the table yelled to the officials that there were six Team A players participating a few seconds ago, then it would be too late to penalize.
Billy, I disagree with this. I dont' see what rule basis you have for calling it if you didn't actually see A6 participating. The rule is very clear that it must be discovered while being violated in order to be penalized. There's no wiggle room.

Especially, in your scenario, where the official doesn't notice it until he sees A6 walking off the court. You do not know positively how he got on the court nor how long he's been there. It's too late.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 29, 2009, 05:26pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 23,378
Clarification ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Billy, I disagree with this. I don't see what rule basis you have for calling it if you didn't actually see A6 participating. The rule is very clear that it must be discovered while being violated in order to be penalized. There's no wiggle room. Especially, in your scenario, where the official doesn't notice it until he sees A6 walking off the court. You do not know positively how he got on the court nor how long he's been there. It's too late.
Good point. Let me clarify. What I'm trying to say is that this infraction may be called during live ball activity, or during dead ball activity, as long as the officials are sure that six players participated. The officials don't have to know how he got on the court, or how long he participated, as long as they are certain that he participated. Once the ball becomes live with five participants, it's too late to penalize. How's that?
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 29, 2009, 05:38pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Good point. Let me clarify. What I'm trying to say is that this infraction may be called during live ball activity, or during dead ball activity, as long as the officials are sure that six players participated. The officials don't have to know how he got on the court, or how long he participated, as long as they are certain that he participated. Once the ball becomes live with five participants, it's too late to penalize. How's that?
I'll have to think about that, but the rule says "discovered while being violated," so I have to think that unless you actually see the participation, you cannot penalize.

Now, that's not to say I wouldn't call this if, just after a violation whistle by my partner, I count and see 6 standing on the floor and know for a fact that no one came on after his whistle.

And, while common sense would dictate that there are time constraints on how long you can hold off on penalizing, consider the following scenario:

1. A has 6 players during live play.
2. U1 whistles an OOB violation against the defense just as U2 realizes the 6th player is playing.
3. A6 sits down immediately.
4. U1 puts the ball in play.
5. U2 gets his head out of his a$$ and blows his whistle to get that 6 player T.

Common sense says one thing, but what rule says it's too late?
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 29, 2009, 05:48pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 23,378
Is An Interpretation Good Enough ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
1. A has 6 players during live play.
2. U1 whistles an OOB violation against the defense just as U2 realizes the 6th player is playing.
3. A6 sits down immediately.
4. U1 puts the ball in play.
5. U2 gets his head out of his a$$ and blows his whistle to get that 6 player T.
Common sense says one thing, but what rule says it's too late?
No rule that know of, just an interpretation: 10.2.2 SITUATION: During a live ball and with the clock running, substitute A6 enters the court. RULING: A technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 29, 2009, 07:04pm
Ch1town
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
No rule that know of, just an interpretation: 10.2.2 SITUATION: During a live ball and with the clock running, substitute A6 enters the court. RULING: A technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball.
I do remember reading this once before! Now I see where you were coming from, but it only pertains to that sitch. I still think it's useless. If, for some reason we don't count our players & make eye contact prior to the ball becoming live, if 6 are still participating, we hit 'em live while being observed.
What was the purpose of adding that one with so many others unsolved mysteries...

Honestly, I believe the sound official/crew would get that when the 6th player steps on to participate.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 29, 2009, 07:47pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
No rule that know of, just an interpretation: 10.2.2 SITUATION: During a live ball and with the clock running, substitute A6 enters the court. RULING: A technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball.
that's for a substitution T, not for a 6 player T. Different rules, Billy.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Social Events SRW Softball 10 Wed Jun 11, 2008 06:06pm
Put These Events In Proper Sequence FallCaller Wrestling 2 Mon Dec 22, 2003 09:43am
NEW - 2003 NFHS Football Rule Changes (as written by the NFHS Rules Committee) KWH Football 27 Tue Jan 21, 2003 11:30am
Events from AFA 18U Natioinals whiskers_ump Softball 0 Mon Aug 05, 2002 09:38pm
Today's tragic events STEVED21 General / Off-Topic 1 Tue Sep 11, 2001 10:20pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:34pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1