[NFHS Rules] Sequence of events

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Penalized if discovered while being violated: Having more than five team members participating simultaneously, if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball. If it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after the ball became live following the first dead ball, it is too late to assess any penalty.

When did excess of 5 become a CE? Surley the Master of Myths was joking?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ch1town

when did excess of 5 become a ce?

ce ???

[mbyron]

Correctable error.

48 hours are about up, guess this one has gone to a cold case...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

When did excess of 5 become a correctable error? Surely the Master of Myths was joking?

It's not a correctable error, but, as in a few other administrative-type technical fouls, there is a time limit. Please review these casebook plays:

10.2.2 SITUATION: During a live ball and with the clock running, substitute A6 enters the court. RULING: A technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball.

10.1.6 SITUATION: With Team A leading 51 to 50, a held ball is called. A6 properly reports and enters the game. Time is then called by Team A. The clock shows two seconds remaining in the game. After play is resumed by a throw-in, the officials: (a) recognize that A has six players competing, but cannot get the clock stopped; or (b) do not notice Team A has six players on the court. Following the throw-in, time expires. Team B now reports to the officials that Team A had six players on the court. RULING: In (a), since one of the officials had knowledge that Team A had six players participating simultaneously and this was detected prior to time expiring, a technical foul is assessed against Team A. In (b), since it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after time had expired, it is too late to assess any penalty.

[Adam]

I'm pretty sure 6 players must be discovered while being violated. If the official didn't notice the 6 players until the ball was already dead, he's wrong to call the T. Not a good night for this official, IMO.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm pretty sure 6 players must be discovered while being violated. If the official didn't notice the 6 players until the ball was already dead, he's wrong to call the T. Not a good night for this official, IMO.

That's what I was thinking. Both claims, actually.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm pretty sure 6 players must be discovered while being violated. If the official didn't notice the 6 players until the ball was already dead, he's wrong to call the T.

Not quite. Team A has six players participating. A violation, or a foul is called. During the dead ball time immediately following the violation, or the foul, Team A notices that is has an extra player on the court and pulls that player off the court. At that time, as the sixth player is walking off the court, the infraction is recognized by the official, before the ball becomes live. At this time it is not too late to penalize for the sixth player. If the ball had become live after this situation, and then the table yelled to the officials that there were six Team A players participating a few seconds ago, then it would be too late to penalize.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Not quite. Team A has six players participating. A violation, or a foul is called. During the dead ball time immediately following the violation, or the foul, Team A notices that is has an extra player on the court and pulls that player off the court. At that time, as the sixth player is walking off the court, the infraction is recognized by the official, before the ball becomes live. At this time it is not too late to penalize for the sixth player. If the ball had become live after this situation, and then the table yelled to the officials that there were six Team A players participating a few seconds ago, then it would be too late to penalize.

Thanks, I see what you're saying B Mac. I like how the rulebook words it though, penalized if discovered while being violated. That whole first dead ball after becoming live crap sounds like a CE to me. I hate CEs

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Not quite. Team A has six players participating. A violation, or a foul is called. During the dead ball time immediately following the violation, or the foul, Team A notices that is has an extra player on the court and pulls that player off the court. At that time, as the sixth player is walking off the court, the infraction is recognized by the official, before the ball becomes live. At this time it is not too late to penalize for the sixth player. If the ball had become live after this situation, and then the table yelled to the officials that there were six Team A players participating a few seconds ago, then it would be too late to penalize.

Billy, I disagree with this. I dont' see what rule basis you have for calling it if you didn't actually see A6 participating. The rule is very clear that it must be discovered while being violated in order to be penalized. There's no wiggle room.

Especially, in your scenario, where the official doesn't notice it until he sees A6 walking off the court. You do not know positively how he got on the court nor how long he's been there. It's too late.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Billy, I disagree with this. I don't see what rule basis you have for calling it if you didn't actually see A6 participating. The rule is very clear that it must be discovered while being violated in order to be penalized. There's no wiggle room. Especially, in your scenario, where the official doesn't notice it until he sees A6 walking off the court. You do not know positively how he got on the court nor how long he's been there. It's too late.

Good point. Let me clarify. What I'm trying to say is that this infraction may be called during live ball activity, or during dead ball activity, as long as the officials are sure that six players participated. The officials don't have to know how he got on the court, or how long he participated, as long as they are certain that he participated. Once the ball becomes live with five participants, it's too late to penalize. How's that?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Good point. Let me clarify. What I'm trying to say is that this infraction may be called during live ball activity, or during dead ball activity, as long as the officials are sure that six players participated. The officials don't have to know how he got on the court, or how long he participated, as long as they are certain that he participated. Once the ball becomes live with five participants, it's too late to penalize. How's that?

I'll have to think about that, but the rule says "discovered while being violated," so I have to think that unless you actually see the participation, you cannot penalize.

Now, that's not to say I wouldn't call this if, just after a violation whistle by my partner, I count and see 6 standing on the floor and know for a fact that no one came on after his whistle.

And, while common sense would dictate that there are time constraints on how long you can hold off on penalizing, consider the following scenario:

1. A has 6 players during live play.
2. U1 whistles an OOB violation against the defense just as U2 realizes the 6th player is playing.
3. A6 sits down immediately.
4. U1 puts the ball in play.
5. U2 gets his head out of his a$$ and blows his whistle to get that 6 player T.

Common sense says one thing, but what rule says it's too late?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

10.2.2 SITUATION: During a live ball and with the clock running, substitute A6 enters the court. RULING: A technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball.

Note that this situation is NOT for participating with 6 but for an illegal entry/substitution...something they can even be pointed out to the officials by the scorekeeper during the next dead ball. This would be a T whether there were 5 on the court or 6 on the court as a result of the illegal entry. If there are 6, you could technically have two different infractions if A6 "participates".

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Note that this situation is not for participating with 6 but for an illegal entry/substitution. If there are 6, you could technically have two different infractions if A6 participates.

Maybe we could call two technicals, but would we? And if we did call two technicals, would the rules back us up? Citations please.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Maybe we could call two technicals, but would we? And if we did call two technicals, would the rules back us up? Citations please.

In some cases, we could...

05-06 Interps...

SITUATION 12: Team B has just scored to go up by three points with time running out in the fourth quarter. Player A1 inbounds the ball to A2 close to the sideline of Team B's bench. A2 releases a three-point try just prior to the horn sounding. Substitute B7 leaves the bench area, enters the court and blocks the shot. RULING: B7 shall be charged with two technical fouls and ejected. One technical foul is assessed for entering the court without permission and one for unsporting conduct. Any member of Team A may shoot the four free throws for the technical fouls. The results of these free throws will determine if the game is over or going into overtime. COMMENT: Two technical fouls must be assessed in this situation. Otherwise, the team committing the infraction would benefit from the act. (10-4-1; 10-4-2)