Tough situation my partner put us in

[Corndog89]

From the original OP: "As soon as the ball bounces in the backcourt, my partner blows his whistle and calls an over and back violation on White.There's not a White team player within 10 feet of the ball. When I go over and ask what he's doing, he has the deer in the headlights look. He realizes he's kicked it, but now what do we do? Do we give it to White since they were the team in control, even though they could not have touched the ball without violating? What would you do?"

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

By rule you have an inadvertent whistle with White in possession, so White should get the ball.

Why do we automatically assume that by rule we have an accidental or inadvertant whistle? Sounds like we just have a really, really bad call. The partner, who BTW was trail and thus it was his call to make (or in this case, blow) called a violation...he got it wrong, but he called a violation nonetheless. What if A1 were standing holding the ball and partner whistled him for a traveling violation? Would you rule an accidental or inadvertant whistle just because he made an incredibly bad travel violation call? What if partner called a foul and you and everyone else in the gym saw that the "fouler" was at least 5 feet away from the fouled player and there was absolutely, positively no way there was a foul? Would you assume an accidental or inadvertant whistle and step in and call it such because your partner is an idiot? Would you intervene on every "bad" call you determine your partner made by using the accidental or inadvertant whistle defense? And don't tell me you've never said to yourself after a horrible call by a partner, "Self, dude just made a horrible call!" and then proceeded to enforce his crappy call. Seems in this OP our crew would just have to live with this particularly horrible call. He (and probably me since he seems pretty clueless) explain it to the Blue coach, give the ball to Blue OOB, and we move on. Afterward, partner and I, along with the camp staff, have a long discussion on how to officiate.

And please note, I'm not disputing the great and accurate discussions on how to correctly administer an accidental or inadvertant whistle. And I'm not taking the chickensh!t route by hiding behind "not-wanting-to-follow-the-rules-just-so-we-can-do-the-easy/right-thing-by-the-Blue-team-and-avoid-personal-pain-and-responsibility-in-the-process" that so many of you will automatically accuse me of...there's going to be pain regardless, anyway. I'm just not automatically assuming this is an accidental or inadvertant whistle.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs

Wow, Jim, I'm not sure you're the one on this board with the very most experience, and highest level of play under your belt, but you sure are right up there near the top, and you've totally been ignored by everyone. Well, don't take it too personally. I listened (for what that's worth!).

I don't believe that he was ignored. It seems to me that people read it and didn't have anything to say about it. Personally, I didn't comment on his post because I agreed with it, and had nothing to add.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Corndog89

From the original OP: "As soon as the ball bounces in the backcourt, my partner blows his whistle and calls an over and back violation on White.There's not a White team player within 10 feet of the ball. When I go over and ask what he's doing, he has the deer in the headlights look. He realizes he's kicked it, but now what do we do? Do we give it to White since they were the team in control, even though they could not have touched the ball without violating? What would you do?"


Why do we automatically assume that by rule we have an accidental or inadvertant whistle? Sounds like we just have a really, really bad call. The partner, who BTW was trail and thus it was his call to make (or in this case, blow) called a violation...he got it wrong, but he called a violation nonetheless. What if A1 were standing holding the ball and partner whistled him for a traveling violation? Would you rule an accidental or inadvertant whistle just because he made an incredibly bad travel violation call? What if partner called a foul and you and everyone else in the gym saw that the "fouler" was at least 5 feet away from the fouled player and there was absolutely, positively no way there was a foul? Would you assume an accidental or inadvertant whistle and step in and call it such because your partner is an idiot? Would you intervene on every "bad" call you determine your partner made by using the accidental or inadvertant whistle defense? And don't tell me you've never said to yourself after a horrible call by a partner, "Self, dude just made a horrible call!" and then proceeded to enforce his crappy call. Seems in this OP our crew would just have to live with this particularly horrible call. He (and probably me since he seems pretty clueless) explain it to the Blue coach, give the ball to Blue OOB, and we move on. Afterward, partner and I, along with the camp staff, have a long discussion on how to officiate.

And please note, I'm not disputing the great and accurate discussions on how to correctly administer an accidental or inadvertant whistle. And I'm not taking the chickensh!t route by hiding behind "not-wanting-to-follow-the-rules-just-so-we-can-do-the-easy/right-thing-by-the-Blue-team-and-avoid-personal-pain-and-responsibility-in-the-process" that so many of you will automatically accuse me of...there's going to be pain regardless, anyway. I'm just not automatically assuming this is an accidental or inadvertant whistle.

Heard something similar........oh, yeah.

Originally Posted by just another ref

He called a violation. No matter how wrong this call is, it would not be as wrong as giving the ball back to white.

I agree with your take, and if I understood correctly, Camron does also.

But that seems to be all of us.

[wanja]

Originally Posted by just another ref

He called a violation. No matter how wrong this call is, it would not be as wrong as giving the ball back to white.

Originally Posted by just another ref

Heard something similar........oh, yeah.


I agree with your take, and if I understood correctly, Camron does also.

But that seems to be all of us.

Include me also.

Originally Posted by wanja

The outcome is correct by common sense and justifiable by rule. This was not an inadvertant whistle and should not be treated as such. Your partner erroneously called a backcourt violation and should live with the call. He should award the ball to blue and play on.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Corndog89

The partner, who BTW was trail and thus it was his call to make (or in this case, blow) called a violation...he got it wrong, but he called a violation nonetheless.

I asked jar this question, and never got a response. I'll ask you too: What is your definition of an indavertant/accidental whistle, in the context of the rules? Surely it's a little more than the official sneezing and the whistle blowing as a result? What about the case play Nevada posted about the official being sure there was a TO request, but got it wrong and called the TO nonetheless? How does the committee consider that an accidental whistle, but the OP's play is not?

If this whole issue is about overruling a partner's call, remember the OP said:

Originally Posted by Smitty

When I go over and ask what he's doing, he has the deer in the headlights look. He realizes he's kicked it, but now what do we do?

The original question was about the official who made the call realized they blew it and made a call they should not have, so what does the crew do now? It has never been about correcting a partner's wrong call.

[just another ref]

Accidental whistle: whistle blown/call made mistakenly which produces an undesirable result

Not the case here.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Accidental whistle: whistle blown/call made mistakenly which produces an undesirable result

Not the case here.

Why not?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Accidental whistle: whistle blown/call made mistakenly which produces an undesirable result

So if the result is "desirable", then the whistle isn't accidental?

Who decides whether the result is "desirable?"

[gslefeb]

If an official blows the whistle to call backcourt; Then realizes it was the incorrect call, don't you get an inadvertant whistles ... ooops my bad - do over... using POI ?

In the case mentioned... If the score was not mentioned - would it have change the responses? Or if White was losing by a bunch?

If the official above - did not "reverse" the call; then we have a backcourt violation and Blue Basketball.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Why not?

The team wound up with the ball which would have wound up with the ball anyway had the call not been made.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

So if the result is "desirable", then the whistle isn't accidental?

In a nutshell, correct.

Who decides whether the result is "desirable?"

The official who made the call, with the assistance of his partner, if necessary.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The team wound up with the ball which would have wound up with the ball anyway had the call not been made.

Do you have a rule or case to back that up?

That's a rhetorical question, because obviously there isn't one. You've been shown the specific rules and case plays backing up giving back to the team last in control, not the team that "should've gotten it".

You want to make a call directly contradicting the rules because you think it's "more fair", and people may not complain as much. I get that, and I used to think that way a long time ago. Most of the time you might get away with it. But if you work this game long enough, there will be that one time that someone will discover you are making calls not based on a lack of rules knowledge, but rather by making up rules, and that will hurt your advancement possibilities.

I've learned it is always better to stick with the rules, no matter how much complaining happens as a result.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by gslefeb

If an official blows the whistle to call backcourt; Then realizes it was the incorrect call, don't you get an inadvertant whistles ... ooops my bad - do over... using POI ?

Yep, that's the gist of the entire thread.

Originally Posted by gslefeb

In the case mentioned... If the score was not mentioned - would it have change the responses? Or if White was losing by a bunch?

Would you change how you call the game in other areas based on the score? Would you make or not make certain travel calls based on the score? Would you start calling fouls on one end and stop calling fouls on the other end, based on the score?

The answer to these questions should be the same as the answer to your question.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Do you have a rule or case to back that up?

That's a rhetorical question, because obviously there isn't one. You've been shown the specific rules and case plays backing up giving back to the team last in control, not the team that "should've gotten it".

You want to make a call directly contradicting the rules because you think it's "more fair", and people may not complain as much. I get that, and I used to think that way a long time ago. Most of the time you might get away with it. But if you work this game long enough, there will be that one time that someone will discover you are making calls not based on a lack of rules knowledge, but rather by making up rules, and that will hurt your advancement possibilities.

I've learned it is always better to stick with the rules, no matter how much complaining happens as a result.

First of all, potential complaints are not a factor in my ruling in this case. Secondly, I think potential for a complaint is not that great in the first place because I am skeptical about how many hs coaches can quote a rule about what to do in the event of an accidental whistle.

The key here, in my estimation, is whether it is absolutely necessary to declare that an accidental whistle has occurred. You guys apparently have issues about what I think an accidental whistle is, but the fact is that there is no specific definition for an accidental whistle.

Originally Posted by the OP

.....my partner blows his whistle and calls an over and back violation on White.....

Your partner made a call. Had he simply blown the whistle, then made no signal but merely stood there with "the deer in the headlights look," it would be difficult to justify giving the ball to blue.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Your partner made a call. Had he simply blown the whistle, then made no signal but merely stood there with "the deer in the headlights look," it would be difficult to justify giving the ball to blue.

Then explain the ruling in case play 5.8.3 Sit. E. The official didn't blow the whistle and not make a call, but actually made the call, granting the TO. Why is that considered an accidental whistle, by rule?