Tough situation my partner put us in

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Smitty

As soon as the ball bounces in the backcourt, my partner blows his whistle and calls an over and back violation on White. There's not a White team player within 10 feet of the ball. When I go over and ask what he's doing, he has the deer in the headlights look. He realizes he's kicked it, but now what do we do?

He called a violation. No matter how wrong this call is, it would not be as wrong as giving the ball back to white.

[CLH]

Just a thought here guys to add to the discussion....

Are we sure that team A is still in control?

Obviously we have an interrupted dribble....however, she is able to regain the ball, albeit momentarily and fling it into the backcourt...

Now, we know team control extends through a pass...but, can we consider this a pass? She flings the ball to an area where none of her teammates can even go get it...how can that be a pass?

One could make the argument that white has lost control of it and we are in a loose ball situation....thus we have to go with the arrow because we can't just assume the blue player was going to retrieve it....

just a thought

[rockyroad]

CLH, exactly how did white "lose" control of the ball? And use the rules definition of team control, not a dictionary definition of the word control, ok? That way you will answer my question AND your theory at the same time.

Originally Posted by CLH

Are we sure that team A is still in control?

Obviously we have an interrupted dribble....

An interrupted dribble suspends player control, but not team control.

[CLH]

Yes I realize there is team control during an interrupted dribble....thanks

Art. 1. A player shall be in control when:
a. Holding a live ball; or
b. Dribbling a live ball while inbounds.

Art. 2. A team shall be in control when:
a. A player of the team is in control;
b. While a live ball is being passed between teammates; or
c. When a player of that team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in.
d. During an interrupted dribble.

Obviously, we've lost player control and retained team control...noone argued that...the interrupted dribble has ended, she was able to get back to the ball and fling it in the backcourt...for discussions sake, do you consider the provisions of Art. 2 to be in effect for this "pass"...would you consider this a pass?...why would a pass between teammates be to a place where a teammate can't ever retrieve it...

BTW, I'm not stupid, I'm giving the ball back to white because thats the best course of action in this one. It's obviously splitting hairs in the rules...I get that...this is just for discussion sake guys

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by CLH

Yes I realize there is team control during an interrupted dribble....thanks

Art. 1. A player shall be in control when:
a. Holding a live ball; or
b. Dribbling a live ball while inbounds.

Art. 2. A team shall be in control when:
a. A player of the team is in control;
b. While a live ball is being passed between teammates; or
c. When a player of that team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in.
d. During an interrupted dribble.

Keep going.

Team control shall continue until ....

And, none of those things happened.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by CLH

...for discussions sake, do you consider the provisions of Art. 2 to be in effect for this "pass"...would you consider this a pass?...why would a pass between teammates be to a place where a teammate can't ever retrieve it...

Well, we can always stay in Rule 4 and check on the actual definition of a Pass: "A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats, or rolls the ball to another player".

Notice it doesn't say "teammate", it says "another player". So whether a teammate can or cannot retrieve it doesn't seem to be an issue. The only question is whether you determine if the player actually threw it, batted it, or rolled it. If so, then it's a pass.

[M&M Guy]

And, as Bob points out, whether it's a pass or not doesn't matter, because team control continues until 4-12-3 and 4-12-4.

[CLH]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Well, we can always stay in Rule 4 and check on the actual definition of a Pass: "A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats, or rolls the ball to another player".

Notice it doesn't say "teammate", it says "another player". So whether a teammate can or cannot retrieve it doesn't seem to be an issue. The only question is whether you determine if the player actually threw it, batted it, or rolled it. If so, then it's a pass.

Art. 2. A team shall be in control when:
a. A player of the team is in control;
b. While a live ball is being passed between teammates; or

I'm just saying...lol

This would be what some refer to as suffering from "paralysis of analysis"

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by CLH

Art. 2. A team shall be in control when:
a. A player of the team is in control;
b. While a live ball is being passed between teammates; or

I'm just saying...lol

This would be what some refer to as suffering from "paralysis of analysis"

But - as Bob posted above - none of the requirements for team control ending have been met, so how do you justify saying that white no longer had team control?

[M&M Guy]

Camron, I was going to do the line-by-line answer, but thought I would save a little time. Nowhere in any of your replies do you reference 4-36. That is the heart of the issue. You seem to be implying this situation isn't covered anywhere in the rules, and thus are extrapolating a "common sense" answer based on other rules. Unfortunately, 4-36 covers it exactly, and there's no gray area involved. Any other ruling would go directly against 4-36.

And, btw, your case certainly does involve a correctable error. The 2nd FT was awarded when the official mistakenly said, "2 shots". Your statement about the FT having to be taken is incorrect based on 8-1-1. Only one player knew the correct amount, hence the confusion on the rebound. The case play explains how to handle that confusion.