Tough situation my partner put us in

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Then explain 8.6.1. What rule tells you to to the AP arrow when you kill the ball with it in team control and there is no infraction, end of period, or goal involved?

8.6.1 is a published ruling by the NFHS committee telling one how to handle a specific mistake by an official of verbally misinforming the players. That is the ruling which tells one to kill the play while the ball is in team control and use the AP arrow.
There is no such ruling for an inadvertent/accidental whistle as in the OP. Therefore, one needs to follow the rules. It is not the job of the game official to set aside the rules whenever he feels that they are unfair. The rule writers determine what is fair and set down the rules according to that. We are not to override their judgment. If a rule creates a poor outcome, then people will work to have it changed. Until then, it needs to be followed.

Sorry, but what you are advocating doing here is inappropriate.

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Sorry, but what you are advocating doing here is inappropriate.

...and so was WATERBOARDING...but, we got the desired results.

[just another ref]

Where is the definition of inadvertent/accidental whistle? As far as I know, there is not one. Does one official stop the game and try to talk his partner out of every bad violation call that he sees? This is a bad call, and everybody knows it, or should know it. It is only an accidental whistle if the officials choose to say so after the fact. But it is a bad call which produces at least part of the correct result. (blue gets the ball, but according to the op, should have had a layup) Let the bad call stand. Give the ball to blue. Move on.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Where is the definition of inadvertent/accidental whistle? As far as I know, there is not one.

2008-09 NFHS Basketball Case Book

ACCIDENTAL WHISTLE
7.5.3 SITUATION: An official sounds his/her whistle accidentally: (a) while A1 is dribbling and in player control; (b) while Team A is in control and passing among teammates; (c) while A1's unsuccessful try attempt is in flight; or (d) while A’s successful try attempt is in flight. RULING: The ball is put in play at the point of interruption. In (a) and (b), Team A is awarded a throw-in at the nearest out-of-bounds spot to where the ball was when the whistle was accidentally sounded. In (c) and (d), the ball does not become dead until the try ends. In (c), since there is no team control when the ball becomes dead, the ball is put in play by the team entitled to the throw-in using the alternating-possession procedure. In (d), since a goal has been scored by Team A, the ball is given to Team B for a throw-in anywhere along the end line. (7-4-4; 4-12-3,6; 4-36)


*5.8.3 SITUATION E: A1 is dribbling the ball in his/her backcourt when: (a) the Team B head coach requests and is erroneously granted a time-out by an official; or (b) the Team A head coach is yelling “side out” offensive instructions to his/her team and the official stops play believing the coach requested a time-out. RULING: In (a), Team B is entitled to use the time-out since it was requested and granted; once granted it cannot be revoked and is charged to Team B. All privileges and rights permitted during a charged time-out are available to both teams. Play will resume with a Team A throw-in nearest to where play was stopped. In (b), an accidental whistle has occurred. Team A was not requesting a time-out, and therefore, should not be granted or charged with one. Play is resumed at the point of interruption. (4-36-1; 4-36-2a)

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Just don't tell Chargers fans this, or they'll get all riled up again.

That's funny.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

2008-09 NFHS Basketball Case Book

ACCIDENTAL WHISTLE
7.5.3 SITUATION: An official sounds his/her whistle accidentally: (a) while A1 is dribbling and in player control; (b) while Team A is in control and passing among teammates; (c) while A1's unsuccessful try attempt is in flight; or (d) while A’s successful try attempt is in flight. RULING: The ball is put in play at the point of interruption. In (a) and (b), Team A is awarded a throw-in at the nearest out-of-bounds spot to where the ball was when the whistle was accidentally sounded. In (c) and (d), the ball does not become dead until the try ends. In (c), since there is no team control when the ball becomes dead, the ball is put in play by the team entitled to the throw-in using the alternating-possession procedure. In (d), since a goal has been scored by Team A, the ball is given to Team B for a throw-in anywhere along the end line. (7-4-4; 4-12-3,6; 4-36)


*5.8.3 SITUATION E: A1 is dribbling the ball in his/her backcourt when: (a) the Team B head coach requests and is erroneously granted a time-out by an official; or (b) the Team A head coach is yelling “side out” offensive instructions to his/her team and the official stops play believing the coach requested a time-out. RULING: In (a), Team B is entitled to use the time-out since it was requested and granted; once granted it cannot be revoked and is charged to Team B. All privileges and rights permitted during a charged time-out are available to both teams. Play will resume with a Team A throw-in nearest to where play was stopped. In (b), an accidental whistle has occurred. Team A was not requesting a time-out, and therefore, should not be granted or charged with one. Play is resumed at the point of interruption. (4-36-1; 4-36-2a)

This is not a definition, but merely an example. It was not an accidental whistle until the official declared it to be one. In the OP, a improper backcourt call serves the game better than an accidental whistle call. I have no problem giving the ball to blue. If you need an explanation based on the rules, this is it.

"Why does blue get the ball?"

"The call was over and back."

"But we didn't......."

"Blue ball"

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This is not a definition, but merely an example. It was not an accidental whistle until the official declared it to be one. In the OP, a improper backcourt call serves the game better than an accidental whistle call. I have no problem giving the ball to blue. If you need an explanation based on the rules, this is it.

"Why does blue get the ball?"

"The call was over and back."

"But we didn't......."

"Blue ball"

So, in 5.8.3 SIT E (b), your conversation would go like this:

"Why am I getting a time out?"

"The call was a time out was granted."

"But we didn't......."

"Time out, white. Full or 30 coach?"

Good luck with the rest of that conversation too. You know what an accidental/inadvertant whistle is, even without a written definition of that term. You're simply looking for an excuse to put your feelings of how you think the rules should be, above how the rules are actually written.

Too bad.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

So, in 5.8.3 SIT E (b), your conversation would go like this:

"Why am I getting a time out?"

"The call was a time out was granted."

"But we didn't......."

"Time out, white. Full or 30 coach?"

Good luck with the rest of that conversation too. You know what an accidental/inadvertant whistle is, even without a written definition of that term. You're simply looking for an excuse to put your feelings of how you think the rules should be, above how the rules are actually written.

Too bad.

Apples and oranges

Assuming I believe that the coach actually did not intend to call a timeout, neither side would be properly served by shoving one down his throat. The OP is a totally different matter.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

You're simply looking for an excuse to put your feelings of how you think the rules should be, above how the rules are actually written.

If you want to put it that way, it's not really that hard to find an excuse in this case.

"A player or a team should not be permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule."

That statement alone makes me comfortable giving the ball to blue.

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

2008-09 NFHS Basketball Case Book

*5.8.3 SITUATION E: A1 is dribbling the ball in his/her backcourt when: (a) the Team B head coach requests and is erroneously granted a time-out by an official; or (b) the Team A head coach is yelling “side out” offensive instructions to his/her team and the official stops play believing the coach requested a time-out. RULING: In (a), Team B is entitled to use the time-out since it was requested and granted; once granted it cannot be revoked and is charged to Team B. All privileges and rights permitted during a charged time-out are available to both teams. Play will resume with a Team A throw-in nearest to where play was stopped. In (b), an accidental whistle has occurred. Team A was not requesting a time-out, and therefore, should not be granted or charged with one. Play is resumed at the point of interruption. (4-36-1; 4-36-2a)


That's funny.

That's why I changed one of my plays names. I named it "Hoof Hearted" after the famous horse.

YouTube - Hoof Hearted wins!

[tomegun]

Are we really talking about administering a rule - which is obvious - or about what may come as a result? Sometimes we have to "get our hands dirty" and in this case it should be a lesson learned...unless the official takes the easy way out and begins to develop this action as a habit. Nevada, M&M and others have done a great job of breaking down the rule. That being the case, it seems like we are trying to find some wiggle room so all hell doesn't break lose.

I had a partner blow an inadvertant whistle, on a phantom shot clock violation, in a college game...in overtime! The arrow was pointing to the team with the lead. My partner had that "what did I do?" look on his face and was hesitant to go talk to the coaches. Knowing it would be a longer conversation if he did it, I went and told the coaches what we had and what we were going to do. Our ONLY saving grace was there was 5.4 on the game clock and the team that was losing was down by too much to come back (they ran out of steam in regulation). If the game had been close, we would have needed security to get us out of there.

Ironically, the guy who made this call was full of confidence and talking (too much) on the ride there and in the locker room during pregame. On the ride home...not so much

I say it should be white's ball, let the blue coach act how he may and we may possibly be going home early once we remove the blue coaching staff!

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Where is the definition of inadvertent/accidental whistle? As far as I know, there is not one. Does one official stop the game and try to talk his partner out of every bad violation call that he sees? This is a bad call, and everybody knows it, or should know it. It is only an accidental whistle if the officials choose to say so after the fact. But it is a bad call which produces at least part of the correct result. (blue gets the ball, but according to the op, should have had a layup) Let the bad call stand. Give the ball to blue. Move on.

Nevada provided the case play I was looking for - the one where the official blows the whistle for a TO when the coach actually yells, "Side out!". As you said, everyone knows it's a bad call, but do we live with that call and give the team the TO anyway? No, because it's considered an accidental whistle and play is resumed at POI, per rule. Insert the "side out"/accidental TO request scenario instead of the wrong backcourt violation call into the OP - does it change how you rule? Do you rule opposite the case play and still give it to the other team because they "should've gotten it anyway"?

You are right that Fed. does not have a specific definition of accidental whistle like the NCAA: their definition of an accidental whistle is when the official blows the whistle when there is not a call to be made. Given many of the case plays are the same, it's not a stretch to use that same definition in NFHS. I can give you an example of a case in NCAA where the particulars are very similar to the OP's play - in NCAA-W a player cannot request a TO while in the air heading OOB or towards the backcourt, in order to save a violation. If A1's TO request is made in the air, and the official mistakenly blows the whistle to grant the TO, the result is there is no TO granted, and A gets the ball for a throw-in because they had team control at the time of the accidental whistle. Yep, if the official would've held their whistle, A1 would've landed OOB and violated, and B would get the ball. But the official screwed up, and B will not get the ball. Doesn't sound "fair", but that's the rule involving POI.