Tough situation my partner put us in

[rockyroad]

CLH, exactly how did white "lose" control of the ball? And use the rules definition of team control, not a dictionary definition of the word control, ok? That way you will answer my question AND your theory at the same time.

Originally Posted by CLH

Are we sure that team A is still in control?

Obviously we have an interrupted dribble....

An interrupted dribble suspends player control, but not team control.

[CLH]

Yes I realize there is team control during an interrupted dribble....thanks

Art. 1. A player shall be in control when:
a. Holding a live ball; or
b. Dribbling a live ball while inbounds.

Art. 2. A team shall be in control when:
a. A player of the team is in control;
b. While a live ball is being passed between teammates; or
c. When a player of that team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in.
d. During an interrupted dribble.

Obviously, we've lost player control and retained team control...noone argued that...the interrupted dribble has ended, she was able to get back to the ball and fling it in the backcourt...for discussions sake, do you consider the provisions of Art. 2 to be in effect for this "pass"...would you consider this a pass?...why would a pass between teammates be to a place where a teammate can't ever retrieve it...

BTW, I'm not stupid, I'm giving the ball back to white because thats the best course of action in this one. It's obviously splitting hairs in the rules...I get that...this is just for discussion sake guys

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by CLH

Yes I realize there is team control during an interrupted dribble....thanks

Art. 1. A player shall be in control when:
a. Holding a live ball; or
b. Dribbling a live ball while inbounds.

Art. 2. A team shall be in control when:
a. A player of the team is in control;
b. While a live ball is being passed between teammates; or
c. When a player of that team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in.
d. During an interrupted dribble.

Keep going.

Team control shall continue until ....

And, none of those things happened.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by CLH

...for discussions sake, do you consider the provisions of Art. 2 to be in effect for this "pass"...would you consider this a pass?...why would a pass between teammates be to a place where a teammate can't ever retrieve it...

Well, we can always stay in Rule 4 and check on the actual definition of a Pass: "A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats, or rolls the ball to another player".

Notice it doesn't say "teammate", it says "another player". So whether a teammate can or cannot retrieve it doesn't seem to be an issue. The only question is whether you determine if the player actually threw it, batted it, or rolled it. If so, then it's a pass.

[Corndog89]

From the original OP: "As soon as the ball bounces in the backcourt, my partner blows his whistle and calls an over and back violation on White.There's not a White team player within 10 feet of the ball. When I go over and ask what he's doing, he has the deer in the headlights look. He realizes he's kicked it, but now what do we do? Do we give it to White since they were the team in control, even though they could not have touched the ball without violating? What would you do?"

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

By rule you have an inadvertent whistle with White in possession, so White should get the ball.

Why do we automatically assume that by rule we have an accidental or inadvertant whistle? Sounds like we just have a really, really bad call. The partner, who BTW was trail and thus it was his call to make (or in this case, blow) called a violation...he got it wrong, but he called a violation nonetheless. What if A1 were standing holding the ball and partner whistled him for a traveling violation? Would you rule an accidental or inadvertant whistle just because he made an incredibly bad travel violation call? What if partner called a foul and you and everyone else in the gym saw that the "fouler" was at least 5 feet away from the fouled player and there was absolutely, positively no way there was a foul? Would you assume an accidental or inadvertant whistle and step in and call it such because your partner is an idiot? Would you intervene on every "bad" call you determine your partner made by using the accidental or inadvertant whistle defense? And don't tell me you've never said to yourself after a horrible call by a partner, "Self, dude just made a horrible call!" and then proceeded to enforce his crappy call. Seems in this OP our crew would just have to live with this particularly horrible call. He (and probably me since he seems pretty clueless) explain it to the Blue coach, give the ball to Blue OOB, and we move on. Afterward, partner and I, along with the camp staff, have a long discussion on how to officiate.

And please note, I'm not disputing the great and accurate discussions on how to correctly administer an accidental or inadvertant whistle. And I'm not taking the chickensh!t route by hiding behind "not-wanting-to-follow-the-rules-just-so-we-can-do-the-easy/right-thing-by-the-Blue-team-and-avoid-personal-pain-and-responsibility-in-the-process" that so many of you will automatically accuse me of...there's going to be pain regardless, anyway. I'm just not automatically assuming this is an accidental or inadvertant whistle.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Corndog89

From the original OP: "As soon as the ball bounces in the backcourt, my partner blows his whistle and calls an over and back violation on White.There's not a White team player within 10 feet of the ball. When I go over and ask what he's doing, he has the deer in the headlights look. He realizes he's kicked it, but now what do we do? Do we give it to White since they were the team in control, even though they could not have touched the ball without violating? What would you do?"


Why do we automatically assume that by rule we have an accidental or inadvertant whistle? Sounds like we just have a really, really bad call. The partner, who BTW was trail and thus it was his call to make (or in this case, blow) called a violation...he got it wrong, but he called a violation nonetheless. What if A1 were standing holding the ball and partner whistled him for a traveling violation? Would you rule an accidental or inadvertant whistle just because he made an incredibly bad travel violation call? What if partner called a foul and you and everyone else in the gym saw that the "fouler" was at least 5 feet away from the fouled player and there was absolutely, positively no way there was a foul? Would you assume an accidental or inadvertant whistle and step in and call it such because your partner is an idiot? Would you intervene on every "bad" call you determine your partner made by using the accidental or inadvertant whistle defense? And don't tell me you've never said to yourself after a horrible call by a partner, "Self, dude just made a horrible call!" and then proceeded to enforce his crappy call. Seems in this OP our crew would just have to live with this particularly horrible call. He (and probably me since he seems pretty clueless) explain it to the Blue coach, give the ball to Blue OOB, and we move on. Afterward, partner and I, along with the camp staff, have a long discussion on how to officiate.

And please note, I'm not disputing the great and accurate discussions on how to correctly administer an accidental or inadvertant whistle. And I'm not taking the chickensh!t route by hiding behind "not-wanting-to-follow-the-rules-just-so-we-can-do-the-easy/right-thing-by-the-Blue-team-and-avoid-personal-pain-and-responsibility-in-the-process" that so many of you will automatically accuse me of...there's going to be pain regardless, anyway. I'm just not automatically assuming this is an accidental or inadvertant whistle.

Heard something similar........oh, yeah.

Originally Posted by just another ref

He called a violation. No matter how wrong this call is, it would not be as wrong as giving the ball back to white.

I agree with your take, and if I understood correctly, Camron does also.

But that seems to be all of us.

[wanja]

Originally Posted by just another ref

He called a violation. No matter how wrong this call is, it would not be as wrong as giving the ball back to white.

Originally Posted by just another ref

Heard something similar........oh, yeah.


I agree with your take, and if I understood correctly, Camron does also.

But that seems to be all of us.

Include me also.

Originally Posted by wanja

The outcome is correct by common sense and justifiable by rule. This was not an inadvertant whistle and should not be treated as such. Your partner erroneously called a backcourt violation and should live with the call. He should award the ball to blue and play on.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Corndog89

The partner, who BTW was trail and thus it was his call to make (or in this case, blow) called a violation...he got it wrong, but he called a violation nonetheless.

I asked jar this question, and never got a response. I'll ask you too: What is your definition of an indavertant/accidental whistle, in the context of the rules? Surely it's a little more than the official sneezing and the whistle blowing as a result? What about the case play Nevada posted about the official being sure there was a TO request, but got it wrong and called the TO nonetheless? How does the committee consider that an accidental whistle, but the OP's play is not?

If this whole issue is about overruling a partner's call, remember the OP said:

Originally Posted by Smitty

When I go over and ask what he's doing, he has the deer in the headlights look. He realizes he's kicked it, but now what do we do?

The original question was about the official who made the call realized they blew it and made a call they should not have, so what does the crew do now? It has never been about correcting a partner's wrong call.

[just another ref]

Accidental whistle: whistle blown/call made mistakenly which produces an undesirable result

Not the case here.

[Corndog89]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I asked jar this question, and never got a response. I'll ask you too: What is your definition of an indavertant/accidental whistle, in the context of the rules? Surely it's a little more than the official sneezing and the whistle blowing as a result? What about the case play Nevada posted about the official being sure there was a TO request, but got it wrong and called the TO nonetheless? How does the committee consider that an accidental whistle, but the OP's play is not?

If this whole issue is about overruling a partner's call, remember the OP said:

The original question was about the official who made the call realized they blew it and made a call they should not have, so what does the crew do now? It has never been about correcting a partner's wrong call.

Just like the NFHS, I don't have a definition for an inadvertant/accidental whistle. And if I have to start defining the rules in the middle of a game, then the rules makers have done us all a disservice. Do you have a precise definition and exhaustive list of what is/is not an inadvertant/accidental whistle? If so, I'd love to see it. Maybe it's like the old description of pornography...I can't define it but I know it when I see it.

As for Nevada's post, it seems perfectly reasonable to me that a mis-communication on a TO request between an official and a coach could/should be an inadvertant/accidental whistle. But the fact that NFHS has to identify "some" quirky situations in which an inadvertant/accidental whistle would be the correct call just confirms the point that you would only make such a call if there was no specific rule application to make. In the OP there is a rule application...badly applied, but a rule applied nonetheless. And you can't (or so it seems to me) get into the habit of correcting every badly applied rule with an inadvertant/accidental whistle crutch.

But my original concern was the statement made very early in this thread that "by rule" we have an inadvertant/accidental whistle. How can there be such a thing when there is no specific inadvertant/accidental whistle rule in the rule book, only some applications to exceptional situations in the case book?

To me the OP is a case where partner (and probably I) have to suck it up and explain what he did to the coaches and move forward. Like none of us has ever blown a call before...bet partner owns that rule forever forward.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Corndog89

Why do we automatically assume that by rule we have an accidental or inadvertant whistle? Sounds like we just have a really, really bad call. The partner, who BTW was trail and thus it was his call to make (or in this case, blow) called a violation...he got it wrong, but he called a violation nonetheless.

If your partner sees a crash during rebounding action, the ball is rolling loose, he blows his whistle, puts his fist in the air....then realizes 2 teammates slammed into each other, is this a bad call or an accidental whistle?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If your partner sees a crash during rebounding action, the ball is rolling loose, he blows his whistle, puts his fist in the air....then realizes 2 teammates slammed into each other, is this a bad call or an accidental whistle?

Or, how about this: A1 has the ball in the front court, A1's pass bounces off A2 and starts rolling towards the backcourt. A1 grabs the ball with one foot in the front court, the other foot in the air. A1 looks down, sees the line, and can't help but put the second foot on the line. The official sees that, blows the whistle and signals the backcourt violation. Except then the official notices the line A1 stepped on was a volleyball line in the front court, not the division line.

Bad call, or accidental whistle?

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Or, how about this: A1 has the ball in the front court, A1's pass bounces off A2 and starts rolling towards the backcourt. A1 grabs the ball with one foot in the front court, the other foot in the air. A1 looks down, sees the line, and can't help but put the second foot on the line. The official sees that, blows the whistle and signals the backcourt violation. Except then the official notices the line A1 stepped on was a volleyball line in the front court, not the division line.

Bad call, or accidental whistle?

I vote for accidental whistle.

[Corndog89]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Or, how about this: A1 has the ball in the front court, A1's pass bounces off A2 and starts rolling towards the backcourt. A1 grabs the ball with one foot in the front court, the other foot in the air. A1 looks down, sees the line, and can't help but put the second foot on the line. The official sees that, blows the whistle and signals the backcourt violation. Except then the official notices the line A1 stepped on was a volleyball line in the front court, not the division line.

Bad call, or accidental whistle?

I'm okay with this being an accidental whistle.