admitting to a coach you made a mistake

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by Mregor

I don't like this at all. The part about missing it on purpose is baiting him. Do you really want him to answer that question?

I've heard this before, and I am not sure what it means - "baiting him".

Is there something I can say that if he responds inappropriately to then his response is no longer owned by him, but by me? I am not sure I accept this suggestion that something *I* say somehow forces another adult to say something he should not, and therefore it is no longer his fault, but mine.

[mbyron]

It's not about force, it's about attitude. Sarcasm rarely plays well with emotionally wrought people, and we know that going in. It's just not funny to them and usually occasions (I won't say 'causes') an inappropriate response, and that's almost always counter-productive.

Answer questions, don't discuss. Be honest but concise. Do your job.

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by mbyron

It's not about force, it's about attitude. Sarcasm rarely plays well with emotionally wrought people, and we know that going in. It's just not funny to them and usually occasions (I won't say 'causes') an inappropriate response, and that's almost always counter-productive.

Answer questions, don't discuss. Be honest but concise. Do your job.

I agree with all this - and I certainly own my own response to the coach, and have my own responsibility to be professional and not escalate the situation.

I just don't like the idea that we might "bait" someone, I guess - like it is our job to make sure they don't have a reason to say something they should not. At the end of the day, they are responsible for what they say, as I am responsible for what I say. While I am aware that I can say things that will anger them, that doesn't in any way, IMO, release them to go ahead and say something they should not.

And the idea seems, to me, to simply give them an excuse for going off - they can just claim "Hey, that official baited me!". I guess it comes back to one of my pet peeves - the idea that our job includes trying to convince adults to act like adults.

Anyway, not a huge deal, I suppose. Such is life - sometimes we have to do what even if we don't like it.

[Berkut]

I think the one time I said something like that when perhaps I shouldn't was very similar to the posited scenario. Some kind of lopsided foul count (I don't remember specifically) and the coach said something like that.

Coach: "Jeff, come on, we are at 7-2 now!"
Me: "Yeah coach, you really should tell your guys to stop fouling".

It actually went over pretty well, but I wish I hadn't said it. He actually laughed, but you never know with something like that. I normally would not say something like that, but it just kind of felt "right" at the particular moment.

Was I "baiting" him?

Originally Posted by Berkut

I think the one time I said something like that when perhaps I shouldn't was very similar to the posited scenario. Some kind of lopsided foul count (I don't remember specifically) and the coach said something like that.

Coach: "Jeff, come on, we are at 7-2 now!"
Me: "Yeah coach, you really should tell your guys to stop fouling".

It actually went over pretty well, but I wish I hadn't said it. He actually laughed, but you never know with something like that. I normally would not say something like that, but it just kind of felt "right" at the particular moment.

Was I "baiting" him?

Absolutely not!
Coach made a statement that you weren't required to respond to & you addressed his "fact" with a "fact" of your own. I like that response!

"I just call them, I don't count them coach" is a good one too, if you choose to address it.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Berkut

I think the one time I said something like that when perhaps I shouldn't was very similar to the posited scenario. Some kind of lopsided foul count (I don't remember specifically) and the coach said something like that.

Coach: "Jeff, come on, we are at 7-2 now!"
Me: "Yeah coach, you really should tell your guys to stop fouling".

It actually went over pretty well, but I wish I hadn't said it. He actually laughed, but you never know with something like that. I normally would not say something like that, but it just kind of felt "right" at the particular moment.

Was I "baiting" him?

Apparently not. But, depending on the situation, you could've been. Clear enough?

That's where your people skills come in - you are finding out what works for you. What you say, how you say it, and when you say it are all important. What you said may have worked at that particular moment in that game, but in a different situation with the same coach may blow up. Also, some officials with their personalities might be able to get away with saying things that you or I cannot.

I had a short conversation with a coach once after a travel call against his team late in the first half:

Coach: "Jim, I know that was a travel, and I'm not arguing that, but did you know you've called 7 travels against us, and only 2 against them?"

Me: "?" (Then I glance up at the scoreboard)

Me: "Coach, I see the fouls are 6-0 in your favor; do you want us to even those up as well?"

Coach: "(...grumble...)No."

Not a word about counts the rest of the game. Now, this was a coach who is known to be a little excitable, so I was taking a chance. But, in this case, it worked - he was trying to get a subtle point across, and I got a subtle point back to him. I haven't used that line any other time, and I may never use it again. But it just worked at that particular moment.

[tomegun]

I don't understand the infatuation with having "lines" to give to coaches. Why not communicate with a coach the same you would any other person? Smart remarks will result in bad situations and we already have emotions running wild (it is an emotional game).

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I don't understand the infatuation with having "lines" to give to coaches. Why not communicate with a coach the same you would any other person? Smart remarks will result in bad situations and we already have emotions running wild (it is an emotional game).

For me, it's not an infatuation with a good "line", but how to communicate what I want to communicate in a very short time. For the most part, I try to be as professional as possible, but I can be kind of smart-a$$ sometimes, (even when dealing with any other person), and it works only if the person I'm talking to knows me well enough. Otherwise, I have to find a way to communicate a couple of thoughts at once while running past a coach, or in the short time during a FT attempt. That's where some of these "lines" come in handy.

For example, what I want to say: "You know what coach, I'm not sure we're watching the same game. You keep begging for calls that my partners and I have not seen. But, being the nice guy I am, I will still acknowledge your complaints, and perhaps there's a chance we've actually missed something, so we'll work harder to see if we can see the same things you do."

What I actually say: "I hear you coach." Same point gets communincated, but in a lot shorter time.

[VACaller]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Apparently not. But, depending on the situation, you could've been. Clear enough?

That's where your people skills come in - you are finding out what works for you. What you say, how you say it, and when you say it are all important. What you said may have worked at that particular moment in that game, but in a different situation with the same coach may blow up. Also, some officials with their personalities might be able to get away with saying things that you or I cannot.

I had a short conversation with a coach once after a travel call against his team late in the first half:

Coach: "Jim, I know that was a travel, and I'm not arguing that, but did you know you've called 7 travels against us, and only 2 against them?"

Me: "?" (Then I glance up at the scoreboard)

Me: "Coach, I see the fouls are 6-0 in your favor; do you want us to even those up as well?"

Coach: "(...grumble...)No."

Not a word about counts the rest of the game. Now, this was a coach who is known to be a little excitable, so I was taking a chance. But, in this case, it worked - he was trying to get a subtle point across, and I got a subtle point back to him. I haven't used that line any other time, and I may never use it again. But it just worked at that particular moment.

I've had similar conversations with coaches about fouls and the score. If he's losing and says "the foul count is 8-1", I told one coach that "no where in the rule book does it say the foul count should be even." If he's winning I may say "the score's not even either, would you like us to change that?" This has been done with coaches that I know dish it out and take it well! They normally just smile!

[Mark Padgett]

I had a coach tell me once that the foul count was 12-3. I told him I was surprised. He asked me why I was surprised. I told him I was surprised he could count to 12 without taking his shoes off. He thought it was funny. Oh yeah - I knew the guy pretty well.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Berkut

I've heard this before, and I am not sure what it means - "baiting him".

Is there something I can say that if he responds inappropriately to then his response is no longer owned by him, but by me? I am not sure I accept this suggestion that something *I* say somehow forces another adult to say something he should not, and therefore it is no longer his fault, but mine.

While he certainly owns his response regardless, officials have been known to play a part in this.

Coach: "that's 9 fouls to 2"
Ref: "Are you accusing me of cheating?"
Coach: "Now that you mention it, yes."
Whack!

Oracle's advice may not be directly baiting him, but it's certainly a leading question. Or, at the very least, it could be taken that way by a coach who is caught up in the game.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

While he certainly owns his response regardless, officials have been known to play a part in this.

Coach: "that's 9 fouls to 2"
Ref: "Are you accusing me of cheating?"
Coach: "Now that you mention it, yes."
Whack!

Oracle's advice may not be directly baiting him, but it's certainly a leading question. Or, at the very least, it could be taken that way by a coach who is caught up in the game.

I actually don't have a problem with asking that question in your scenario. We all know most coaches say this to imply we are not calling the game fairly and we need to make a couple of boarderline calls in their favor now to even things up. This question removes any subtlety from the situation, and most coaches understand if they take the conversation any further, it becomes an easy T.

There could be some people skills needed to determine how and when to use this approach. In some situations, simply ignoring the comment is best. For others, this question serves as the warning that we are done playing word games.

[Adam]

I can see your point, but I'm not sure it applies to the OP. I think when, where, and with whom are very important factors for this. If you're acknowledging a mistake, I don't think it's generally best to take this approach. The whole point of the conversation is to ease tensions by letting the coach know you are aware you screwed up; I've never had that go bad when I've done it. Then again, I don't recall doing that with the same coach twice. And usually, it was a matter of getting straight lined, or acknowledging to the winning coach in a blowout that I may have missed a borderline travel on the losing team. (the expected thing around here whether I agree or not)

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I can see your point, but I'm not sure it applies to the OP. I think when, where, and with whom are very important factors for this. If you're acknowledging a mistake, I don't think it's generally best to take this approach. The whole point of the conversation is to ease tensions by letting the coach know you are aware you screwed up; I've never had that go bad when I've done it. Then again, I don't recall doing that with the same coach twice. And usually, it was a matter of getting straight lined, or acknowledging to the winning coach in a blowout that I may have missed a borderline travel on the losing team. (the expected thing around here whether I agree or not)

I was only repsonding to the narrow subject of whether you were "baiting" a coach in regards to the "fouls are 9 to 2" comment. But you are right, if the reason the fouls are 9 to 2 is because you and your crew have screwed up 5 or 6 of those calls, then I wouldn't recommend answering in that manner either.

In terms of the OP, I agree with you that occasionally admitting an obvious mistake can go a long way towards a good coach/official relationship. And, as others have already mentioned, it must be used vary sparingly.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

In terms of the OP, I agree with you that occasionally admitting an obvious mistake can go a long way towards a good coach/official relationship. And, as others have already mentioned, it must be used vary sparingly.

And please try not to have that conversation with under 2 minutes to go in a competitive game

"Only once & never a gamer" is what I've heard.