Jump ball or Travel

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

So based upon the OP, travel or held ball?
We all seem to agree on what constitues a held ball. The discsusion I believe is based on the OP, is there any doubt that this play was a travel as per rules versus judgment call.

Okay, let's try this again.

Anytime the defense touches the ball held by an airborne shooter who does not release before landing, you have to make a judgment. "Did the defender's touch prevent the release." Sometimes that judgment is easier than others. In the case of the OP, it seems to have been a pretty easy judgment in favor of a travel call.

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Ok, I'm not even sure what your last sentence means, to be honest. Are you saying you see judgment as determining the call regardless of the rule? I'm sorry, but that's a strawman. No one here would make that claim.

No I was trying to understand what "judgement" means to you.

I am trying to understand why based on the OP there should be any type of "judgment". There was no "held ball" according to the description on the rule.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

No I was trying to understand what "judgement" means to you.

I am trying to understand why based on the OP there should be any type of "judgment". There was no "held ball" according to the description on the rule.

Since we posted concurrently, I'll repost what is essentially an answer to your post here.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Anytime the defense touches the ball held by an airborne shooter who does not release before landing, you have to make a judgment. "Did the defender's touch prevent the release." Sometimes that judgment is easier than others. In the case of the OP, it seems to have been a pretty easy judgment in favor of a travel call.

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Okay, let's try this again.

Anytime the defense touches the ball held by an airborne shooter who does not release before landing, you have to make a judgment. "Did the defender's touch prevent the release." Sometimes that judgment is easier than others. In the case of the OP, it seems to have been a pretty easy judgment in favor of a travel call.

but this is my "mental block", and I have simplified the thought process

1) player in air with ball, any rule broken : NO
2) Is player passing, trying holding : OP ays none
3) defense comes from behind
4) Any illegal contact : NO
5) Defense touches ball
6) Held ball rule applies : NO
7) offense goes to floor with held ball
8) Rule 4.44 applies; travel whistle

so no judgment in my mind.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

but this is my "mental block", and I have simplified the thought process

1) player in air with ball, any rule broken : NO
2) Is player passing, trying holding : OP ays none
3) defense comes from behind
4) Any illegal contact : NO
5) Defense touches ball
6) Held ball rule applies : NO
7) offense goes to floor with held ball
8) Rule 4.44 applies; travel whistle

so no judgment in my mind.

Judgment is required for you to move from 5 to 6 in your little progression here.

Let me ask you this. Why does the held ball rule not apply?

(wow, Socrates and Aristotle in one day?)

Originally Posted by ILMalti

No BB is not a "Art than a Science "; there are absolutes

Okay

Originally Posted by ILMalti

One game a player is allowed to do "X" and in an other game they are not. The rules keep it all consitant.

If you say so... I believe the officiating team keeps it consistent though. Every game is different, the coaches should use that opportunity to teach their kids to deal with adversity as they will have to make adjustments in life. Yep life-lessons can be taught through Bball.

Originally Posted by ILMalti

I have been in a game which ended 100-2.

Did you score the 2 points

Originally Posted by ILMalti

All I am saying if we all understand the rules and apply them then we will all have a consitant call , and players, coaches etc will not complain.

HA!!!! As the players would say "are you serious!"

Originally Posted by ILMalti

"Over the back comes to mind" No such rule or call. But the minute coaches and players see someone who happens to be very tall put their head over a short player ... the calls start and some refs call it.....

I detest that as well

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Understanding the rules is not easy, and I am not saying I know them. All I am saying is if we apply the rules consistantly with out our "ART" side the game will be consistant. We are not there to judge the game but to make sure the rules are followed.

No disrespect, but I'm going to leave you with this because it's obvious that you are either new to the craft or don't work a high level of ball, yet.

Any idiot can read a rule book, pass the test & run up and down the court blowing their whistle, agreed?
We even have some that don't own a book, but sits in the stands & makes all the calls, by rule... their misconception of the rule that is. But that's another story...

In addition to great PLAY CALLING ability, COMMUNICATION SKILLS, FITNESS, PERSONAL QUALITIES & ON/OFF-COURT PRESENSE,
GAME MANAGEMENT skills are a must to be successful!! Lead officials with the R & Crew Chief mentality knows that managing players/coaches emotions, knowing the time, score, etc, offensive/defensive schemes & game situation (who's trying to do what) is key... U1s & U2s are, well, just U1s & U2s
The game within the game!!

Let me stop, I should be charging you for this information
Do you have a PayPal account?

[Adam]

Ch1town, he's really caught up on the word "judge." I've got no idea why, but that seems to be his main issue.

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Judgment is required for you to move from 5 to 6 in your little progression here.

Let me ask you this. Why does the held ball rule not apply?

(wow, Socrates and Aristotle in one day?)

Socrates never wrote anything down and relied on the students(Plato, socrates prized student) to put it down and Aristotle was Plato prime student,
So Plato is the rule book Please continue asking the only way to really get an understanding of the rules

The held ball rule is very specific about when a held ball occurs,I refer you to 4.25.2

The rule states "prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try" keep word prevents
the OP specifically says no change in airborne action to them or the ball: not a judgment call in this case

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Ch1town, he's really caught up on the word "judge." I've got no idea why, but that seems to be his main issue.

I see, he judges even when he thinks he's not

Originally Posted by ILMalti

1) player in air with ball, any rule broken : NO << J'ment
2) Is player passing, trying holding : OP ays none << J'ment
3) defense comes from behind
4) Any illegal contact : NO << J'ment
5) Defense touches ball
6) Held ball rule applies : NO << J'ment
7) offense goes to floor with held ball
8) Rule 4.44 applies; travel whistle << J'ment

so no judgment in my mind.

Making a judgment doesn't always, absolutely, automatically require a whistle.

[BillyMac]

"There's no judge in judgment."

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

"There's no judge in judgment."

Ah English an other set of rule

[ILMalti]

You see ch1town I see things differently

1) player in air with ball, any rule broken : NO << Fact
2) Is player passing, trying holding : OP ays none << Observation
3) defense comes from behind
4) Any illegal contact : NO << observation
5) Defense touches ball << Fact
6) Held ball rule applies : NO << fact based on rule
7) offense goes to floor with held ball << fact
8) Rule 4.44 applies; travel whistle << Automatic rule

so no judgment in my mind. not for this OP

And I agree with "Making a judgment doesn't always, absolutely, automatically require a whistle." Judgments are made throught the game, but on this OP there is none

Yes every idiot can read the rules, but it does not mean if you read them you understand them. fact


You also are right I am a rookie

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Okay


No disrespect, but I'm going to leave you with this because it's obvious that you are either new to the craft or don't work a high level of ball, yet.

None taken. You are right. I can only learn from experienced fellows

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Any idiot can read a rule book, pass the test & run up and down the court blowing their whistle, agreed?.

I am only in favour of understanding and applying the rules as the BB elders want it to be done. My confusion perhaps is understanding judgement call that override a rule.

Originally Posted by Ch1town

We even have some that don't own a book, but sits in the stands & makes all the calls, by rule... their misconception of the rule that is. But that's another story...

Agreed

Originally Posted by Ch1town

In addition to great PLAY CALLING ability, COMMUNICATION SKILLS, FITNESS, PERSONAL QUALITIES & ON/OFF-COURT PRESENSE,
GAME MANAGEMENT skills are a must to be successful!! Lead officials with the R & Crew Chief mentality knows that managing players/coaches emotions, knowing the time, score, etc, offensive/defensive schemes & game situation (who's trying to do what) is key... U1s & U2s are, well, just U1s & U2s
The game within the game!!

Let me stop, I should be charging you for this information
Do you have a PayPal account?

Totally agree;

Thank you

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Let me stop, I should be charging you for this information
Do you have a PayPal account?

Originally Posted by ILMalti

You are right.

Totally agree

Thank you

Not a problem, I PM'd you the fee & where to send it.
Thank YOU!

[Johnny Ringo]

Wow. Did not expect this reaction.

In my opinion, the touch and it was slight touch - not even a slap - did not prevent the shotter from shooting. He simply just returned to the floor holding the ball in a shooting position.

I too, used my judgement and called a travel. My partner said this had to be a jump ball ... I was trying to see if I can find a rule that supported my call.