Jump ball or Travel

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

I was trying to see if I can find a rule that supported my call.

Sometimes we have to go to Rule 11 when all else fails...

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

You see ch1town I see things differently

1) player in air with ball, any rule broken : NO << Fact
2) Is player passing, trying holding : OP says none << Observation
3) defense comes from behind
4) Any illegal contact : NO << observation
5) Defense touches ball << Fact
6) Held ball rule applies : NO << fact based on rule
7) offense goes to floor with held ball << fact
8) Rule 4.44 applies; travel whistle << Automatic rule

so no judgment in my mind. not for this OP

Let me rewrite your list in what it really is. You're misusing the term judgment. Many things on the court are indeed facts but anytime you must make a decision, that is judgment.

Action	Determination	Your term	What it really is
1) player in air with ball, any rule broken	NO	fact	obsrervation/fact
2) Is player passing, trying holding	OP says none	observation	judgement…you are judging/deciding between different possible actions...was the player passing, shooting or holding the ball?
3) defense comes from behind			observation/fact
4) Any illegal contact	NO	observation	If there was clearly no contact, that could be called an observation or fact. If there was contact, you are judging whether it is legal or not legal.
5) Defense touches ball		fact	obsrervation/fact
6) Held ball rule applies	NO	fact based on rule	This is judgment….deciding if a rule applies.
7) offense goes to floor with held ball		fact	fact
8) Rule 4.44 applies; travel whistle		automatic rule	judgement…you are judging whether a rule applies…even if is apparently obvious.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Socrates never wrote anything down and relied on the students(Plato, socrates prized student) to put it down and Aristotle was Plato prime student,
So Plato is the rule book Please continue asking the only way to really get an understanding of the rules

The held ball rule is very specific about when a held ball occurs,I refer you to 4.25.2

The rule states "prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try" keep word prevents
the OP specifically says no change in airborne action to them or the ball: not a judgment call in this case

Don't presume I don't know the rule, I'm very aware of what this rule says. My first point is that the OP made his judgment at the time, and his post reflected that judgment. My second point is that this play always requires judgment, even if that judgment seems very easy. My third point is that I have no idea why you are hung up on that one word. Call it a "decision" if you must.

[Johnny Ringo]

Time to vote: What does everyone here basedon the OP? Travel or jump ball?

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Don't presume I don't know the rule, I'm very aware of what this rule says. My first point is that the OP made his judgment at the time, and his post reflected that judgment. My second point is that this play always requires judgment, even if that judgment seems very easy. My third point is that I have no idea why you are hung up on that one word. Call it a "decision" if you must.

Fair compromise. Sorry for being such a stickler about the word, FOR ME Decision means, no personal influence, whilst judgement does.. NOTE the words "FOR ME".

Not for one moment have i doubted your BB rule knowledge. We do not happen to see things the same way at times and thus until we understand each otehr "style" in describing stuff we will have these misunderstandings

Thank you


Travel is my vote (obvioulsy)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Travel is my vote (obvioulsy)

FWIW, travel is the obvious call given the description given in the OP.

I'm not sure what you mean by personal influence. Every call I make is influenced by whether I think it was a break of the rules or not.

Did the contact cause him to travel?
Did the contact substantially alter the shot?
Did those two feet land simultaneously?
Did he release the dribble before lifting his pivot?
Did the coach cross the line with her comments?
Did her foot hit the OOB line before she released the pass?
and finally
Did the defender's contact on the ball prevent the release?

Sometimes the answers to these questions are easier than others. The OP appears to have been an easy call if you know the rule. There are other cases where the determination is more difficult to make. As Bob says, benefit goes to a held ball if there's any doubt.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Socrates never wrote anything down and relied on the students(Plato, socrates prized student) to put it down and Aristotle was Plato prime student,
So Plato is the rule book Please continue asking the only way to really get an understanding of the rules

The held ball rule is very specific about when a held ball occurs,I refer you to 4.25.2

The rule states "prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try" keep word prevents
the OP specifically says no change in airborne action to them or the ball: not a judgment call in this case

If you are simply considering how to apply the rule to this OP's situation as he has presented it, then you not required to make any judgments.

However, if you are officiating that play in real life, you definitely have some judgments to make, based on the observable facts and your own experiences. That the player left the ground, that the defender touched the ball, and that the player returned to the ground without releasing the ball are all observable facts. Whether the defender's contact prevented the player from releasing the ball...that is the official's judgment. Even before that, you have to judge whether the player even attempted to release the ball, because with no attempted release there is no prevented release.

[ILMalti]

I regret bringing up my concern about the word "judgement call" or my belief that the rule book covers all required situations and if does not (cover the situation) it is not against the rules.

but to answer a couple of questions

"Even before that, you have to judge whether the player even attempted to release the ball" Would the "judgment " be based upon an officials own playing experience if the action is not that clear ? If an official had NO BB playing experience would they be able to come to the same conclusion that an experienced BB official has?

And since this "judgment call" is based on the official own BB experience that is why I said the "judgment call" are influenced by "perosnal influence".

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

I regret bringing up my concern about the word "judgement call" or my belief that the rule book covers all required situations and if does not (cover the situation) it is not against the rules.

but to answer a couple of questions

"Even before that, you have to judge whether the player even attempted to release the ball" Would the "judgment " be based upon an officials own playing experience if the action is not that clear ? If an official had NO BB playing experience would they be able to come to the same conclusion that an experienced BB official has?

And since this "judgment call" is based on the official own BB experience that is why I said the "judgment call" are influenced by "perosnal influence".

Right or wrong, qualified or unqualified, some way, some how, somebody has to make that determination. That somebody is you and me. That's why we make the big bucks.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

Strange play: Player A is an airborne shooter, the defender comes from behind a touches (more like grazes) the ball. The ball never came dislodged, loose or at anytime did player A lose control.

Player A just held onto the ball and returned to the floor - he never shot it, bobbled it, nothing ...

The case book says if the defender keeps the shooter from releasing it is a jump ball, but I am not sure that defender was kept from releasing it. The shooter just never shot it.

Thoughts?

Player A is not an airborne shooter. That would mean that he had already released the ball and was returning to the floor. See the first definition in rule 4.
You need to be precise in your terminology and call him an airborne player in the act of shooting.

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

Wow. Did not expect this reaction.

In my opinion, the touch and it was slight touch - not even a slap - did not prevent the shotter from shooting. He simply just returned to the floor holding the ball in a shooting position.

I too, used my judgement and called a travel. My partner said this had to be a jump ball ... I was trying to see if I can find a rule that supported my call.

Have you tried the NFHS Case Book?

4.44.3 SITUATION A: A1 jumps to try for goal. B1 also jumps and: (a) slaps the
ball out of A1’s hands; (b) touches the ball but does not prevent A1 from releasing
the ball; (c) touches the ball and A1 returns to the floor holding the ball; or
(d) touches the ball and A1 drops it to the floor and touches it first after it
bounces. RULING: In (a) and (b), the ball remains live. In (c), a traveling violation.
In (d), a violation for starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. Since
the touching did not prevent the pass or try in (b), (c) and (d), the ball remains
live and subsequent action is covered by rules which apply to the situation.


Your partner was wrong.