Situation at camp...

[zeedonk]

OK, this is my second summer as an official. Passed the IAABO test and am now certified and have headed out to the camp circuit this summer. Here's the situation:

3 man crew during 2nd day of camp. 3 observers watching our game. I am trail, tableside. A1 attempts a 3 from the baseline. Lead is right in front of him and we both signal the 3 attempt. I bring the shooter down and see no contact by defense. Goal is good- I signal good and hear L whistle a foul, which I believe is in the lane (because I see bodies on the ground.

Lead reports and begins to administer 1 shot. We were reporting and staying at the table at this camp, so I am now Lead administering free throw when I pull the three of us together to discuss why we are shooting. I ask lead- did you have a foul on shooter? He nods yes, but keeps moving. Center asks if he has off ball foul and he shakes his head no.

Lead re-reports the foul and one shot indication to table and puts shooter on the line. I am sure that shooter was not fouled, and to my everlasting shame, allow this to happen. I file this under "he made the call, let him live with it" as the game was not very close. Shooter misses foul shot and off we go.

Sure enough, after the game (only a few minutes remained), the observers kill us for this. I knew it was wrong, let it happen and expected to be killed afterwards. My explanation to the observers was as I described above, complete with the "I was sure shooter wasn't fouled"...

So my question is- how to deal with this in the future? I know that next time, I have to be stronger in making sure this error does not occur, but I mean in terms of discussing it afterwards- I did not simply point my finger at Lead and say "He did it, it's his fault" and wash my hands of it.

In terms of the discussion with the observers, how do we talk about it? I am sure the observers don't want me hanging my man out to dry. I admitted my part in the error and tried to clam up as much as possible. Is this a situation where it is expected that the crew eat crow for the error, or since it's a camp (and not a tryout camp) is it important to ferret out who screwed it up? Is it OK to back off a bad call by a partner to let him live with it or should I have forced the issue and delayed the game further while the officials argue amongst themselves? I'm sure that would not have gone over well either...

Thoughts?

[JRutledge]

I must be missing something, why would you get in trouble for a call that your partner made? If they messed up the call, they messed up the call. The rules were followed if such a call was made. As a clinician in basketball for my state, I cannot imagine getting on you for a foul call that you did not actually make. I would only say something to your partner that made the call and wonder why he did not trust you on this play.

Now the only real question I would want to know is why was the Lead giving a 3 point attempt call? Normally this is not in the mechanics if you are in a half-court situation, but can be something used or accepted in a transition situation.

Peace

[Adam]

I'm with Rut, a bit confused.
Are you saying this partner called a foul off ball and got confused and associated it with the shot?
If so, you might be able to offer help.
If, however, your partner called a foul on the shot, you have to let him live with that.

[All_Heart]

Originally Posted by zeedonk

A1 attempts a 3 from the baseline.

The Lead should have called an OOB violation and none of this would have happened!


It sounds like you handled this situation exactly the way that you should have.

Options

1) Give your partner information so that he/she can change or modify their ruling. (COMPLETED)

Non Options

1) Overrule your partner

2) Disagree with your "observers". (Never a good idea at camp)

What did your observers say that you should have done? Or let me guess they don't have an answer they just want to place blame.

[fullor30]

Reminds me of my early years and my newbie partner, after I make a foul call, blows his whistle, and runs over to tell me he didn't think it was a foul????? I'm also missing something here.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm with Rut, a bit confused.
Are you saying this partner called a foul off ball and got confused and associated it with the shot?
If so, you might be able to offer help.
If, however, your partner called a foul on the shot, you have to let him live with that.

Unless this was a college women's camp, why would a lead call a foul on a 3-point jump shooter? Why is he even looking there? Now there are 4 eyes on the jump shooter and 8 other players doing who knows what -- I guess the C can get all of that.

And on top of that, the T has no foul and the L makes one up. And the clinicians are passing blame on the *crew*?

[mbyron]

Sounds like it was all good up to the officials' meeting. That should have gone like this:

YOU: We shouldn't be shooting, since the shooter wasn't fouled. Right?
L: Oh, uh, I guess not.

If your L insists that the shooter was fouled, try one more time: "you weren't looking at the shooter, but called a foul on the rebound that caused all the bodies in the lane, right?"

If he's going to pass up 2 opportunities to get it right, at that point you have to let him hoist himself on his petard. But the observers can't "kill the crew" at that point.

If they did criticize the crew, perhaps it was for not being more pro-active in preventing the error. You did meet to discuss the call, after all -- what's the point of that if you're not going to get it right?

[zeedonk]

OK-

Lead called a foul off the ball. I thought he made a call on the ball (which would have been my primary, and no, I don't know why he signalled 3, he should not have). When he indicated one shot is where I got us together to discuss.

I said there should be no shot as foul was off the ball. C seemed to be OK with going with the foul on the shooter theory since he didn't see if there was one or not.

Lead never answered me if the foul was on the shooter, he was just bringing in the shooter for the foul shot. As I didn't get an answer and I told him what I thought, I let him have it his way, knowing it was wrong and we were gonna catch hell for it.

Afterwards, I was not going to disagree with the observers, I just told them what I saw and what I did. They started by saying "the one thing I cannot forgive is not knowing the rules- a foul off the ball does not get a foul shot except intentional or one/one and why did the shooter shoot the FTs?"

I assumed that we were getting killed because Lead called an off ball foul, it was not a one/one situation and Lead brought the shooter in to shoot one shot instead of the guy that was fouled. I knew it was wrong but decided on the spot not to make a specatcle of the situation b/c Lead didn't appear willing to change anything. So I let him live with it and decided that I was OK getting some heat from staff because 1- I knew it was wrong and 2- I can handle it and if it became a bigger issue, I would have gone further to protect myself.


Now is there a difference if this is a "tryout" camp? Is it then every man for himself and you can toss the partner under the bus? I suppose in that situation you may think twice how to proceed...

Originally Posted by zeedonk

Now is there a difference if this is a "tryout" camp? Is it then every man for himself and you can toss the partner under the bus? I suppose in that situation you may think twice how to proceed...

Not at all. Throwing your partner under the bus should be frowned upon at all levels.

I think you missed a prime opportunity to shine for your rules knowledge, communication skills & dedication to getting it right.

"Partner, I had the shooter up & down, there was no foul there. If you had something off-ball, we aren't in the bonus so we should take the ball out. I'll accept full responsibility if this is wrong, it's up to you to change this call for the GAME."

After that exchange, you have done all can do to get it right.

[dsqrddgd909]

Thanks Ch1. From my newbie POV that is a great explanation of how to handle it.
I'm gonna bronze this e-mail, wear it under my compression shirt and refer to it on all double whistles.

[hoopguy]

Just a thought... You keep mentioning tryout camp vs instructional camp. I may be off base here but I can't tell you how many times I have been given the advice "Always give your best game because you never know who is watching"

[IREFU2]

Well, if it was me on the court, I would have went to my partner, especially if he was saying one shot. Unless the person shooting the 3 point attempt was fouled, that is the only way we shoot one shot. Remember, if you are in a crew and you ignore things that can be corrected, you will also sink with the ship. I heard an evaluator tell a person in a sinking crew to take of the life jacket and captain the boat.

[M&M Guy]

Now that I understand the entire situation, I see why the evaluators got on the entire crew, rather than just that one official. The entire crew screwed up by allowing an unmerited FT to be shot. That should be something that should never happen, if the crew communicates with each other. zeedonk, you knew that the original shooter was not the one on the line, then you knew the call had to be off-ball, and therefore either no shots (if not in the bonus), one-and-one, or two shots. You had to be more assertive in giving you partner that information, especially once they told you it was an off-ball call. The C should've also been just as assertive if they were in on the discussion. That's why it is the entire crew's fault, not simply the calling official.

I've seen entire crews lose games as a result of screwing up a rule and/or putting a wrong FT shooter on the line. It is important you do everything in your power to communicate and make sure things are done correctly. You are correct in that you will not come in and try to overrule a judgement call. Let the L live with their foul call, but make sure the administration of that call ends up correct, by both knowing the correct shooter and making sure the number of shots (if any) are correct.

As far as the differences between a "tryout" vs. "instructional" camp, I don't think you should handle this play any differently. Do your best to find out what is happening, and give your partner(s) all the information possible. This shows you are doing what you can. If the L continues to ignore your information, then there is not much you can do, and hopefully the evaluators would see that. Then, after the game, listen to the evaluators and absorb their input.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I've seen entire crews lose games as a result of screwing up a rule and/or putting a wrong FT shooter on the line. It is important you do everything in your power to communicate and make sure things are done correctly. You are correct in that you will not come in and try to overrule a judgement call. Let the L live with their foul call, but make sure the administration of that call ends up correct, by both knowing the correct shooter and making sure the number of shots (if any) are correct.

I agree completely. The distinction between discussing judgment and discussing administration exactly right.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

Thanks Ch1. From my newbie POV that is a great explanation of how to handle it.
I'm gonna bronze this e-mail, wear it under my compression shirt and refer to it on all double whistles.

Hold on to your bronzing because I disagree. But first a story.

About 5 years ago, Jamie Luckie told us about a situation where he was the L and a 3-point shooter was fouled in such a way that the T couldn't see it. He had high certainty that the foul happened an blew the whistle. The common sense he used when talking about this play is the fact that if a foul is missed, especially one he saw, the coach 1.) wasn't going to go after the guy 30 feet away, but the guy 5 feet away and 2.) he couldn't tell the coach "it wasn't my area" on a call so close to him. Now, I'm all for staying in your area, but I would like to know what others think of this situation. I understand both sides, but there are so many situations where you can see something and have to make a decision to put air in the whistle based on the position of the players (if they are (still) in your primary).

Keeping that in mind, I don't think it is a good thing tell my partner I had no foul in such a manner as Ch1town suggests. What I would do is ask my partner what he/she had, for clarification, and proceed appropriately. If something is about to go down that I know is wrong and my partner is unwilling to accept the information I have, I will say something that would begin like, "For the record, I think we need to..." The ultimate goal is to get out of the situatio without kicking a rule, but if an official puts air in the whistle, it is their call.