Do you make a call here?

[Mark Padgett]

Boys varsity summer league. A1 is at the line to shoot the first of two shots. I am lead in two man. He misses and the ball bounces off the bracket right back at him. My partner waves subs in and A1 takes a "practice shot" while I am calling for the ball.

Since it was summer league, I just told him that if he wanted to practice, he should do it at halftime.

My question is - if this was a regular season sanctioned game, would you make a call here? If so, what? Certainly he is gaining an unfair advantage by practicing at that time, but is a technical warranted?

BTW - this does not come under the delay rule for warnings but could come under the technical foul rule for intentional delay.

[ChuckElias]

I think you handled it perfectly. I don't see any reason to give a T, since there's no delay. Everybody's waiting for the sub anyway. I'd just get the ball after the "practice" shot and ask him not to do it again. What if he does it again anyway? I really don't know. Maybe I'd be more stern and tell him next time I'd consider it unsportsmanlike for ignoring my instructions. But I doubt there would be 3 chances in a game for him to do it.

Chuck

[Brian Watson]

I know dunking is in there, but is isn't there some obscure rarely used, except by rookies, rule that says taking a shot during a dead ball period is a T?

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
I think you handled it perfectly. I don't see any reason to give a T, since there's no delay. Everybody's waiting for the sub anyway. I'd just get the ball after the "practice" shot and ask him not to do it again. What if he does it again anyway? I really don't know. Maybe I'd be more stern and tell him next time I'd consider it unsportsmanlike for ignoring my instructions. But I doubt there would be 3 chances in a game for him to do it.

Chuck

I am with Chuck. Unless the kid keeps doing it, maybe then and only then would you make an issue out of it. But I would never T a kid for something not covered specificially in the rules like this. It just would not be good common sense.

Peace

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by JRutledge
But I would never T a kid for something not covered specificially in the rules like this.

It is covered in the rules. It's illegal and it's a technical foul. Mark is simply asking if anyone would call it.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

It is covered in the rules. It's illegal and it's a technical foul. Mark is simply asking if anyone would call it.

This is not specifically covered in the rules. If you are talking about 10-3-7b, sorry but that is not my interpretation of that rule, nor is this the situation decribed. A1 did not delay anything and the ball came right back to him. Not even the casebook covers this specifically, so what are you talking about? No delay, not a technical and common sense wins out here. But then again you think giving a T for a kid cursing to himself is warranted. What else should be expected from you Tony?

And if I did not make myself clear, I am with Chuck on this one and his explaination. The rest of it you are just nit picking.

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on Jul 1st, 2002 at 01:49 AM]

[Jurassic Referee]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge
[B]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

It is covered in the rules. It's illegal and it's a technical foul. Mark is simply asking if anyone would call it.

This is not specifically covered in the rules. If you are talking about 10-3-7b, sorry but that is not my interpretation of that rule, nor is this the situation decribed. A1 did not delay anything and the ball came right back to him. Not even the casebook covers this specifically, so what are you talking about? No delay, not a technical and common sense wins out here. But then again you think giving a T for a kid cursing to himself is warranted. What else should be expected from you Tony?

And if I did not make myself clear, I am with Chuck on this one and his explaination. The rest of it you are just nit picking.

Peace

It Is covered SPECIFICALLY in therulebook--SPECIFICALLY under R-2-7-4!That says-Quote-"The officials shall conduct the game in accordance with the rules.This includes prohibiting practice during a dead ball,except between halves."-Unquote.That rule has been in the book forever.You CAN call a T,if you want to.That's up to the official's judgement.It's nitpicking as to whether you should call it,NOT whether you CAN call it.
Tony and Brian's answers were bang on!!

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jul 1st, 2002 at 04:31 AM]

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by JRutledge

This is not specifically covered in the rules. If you are talking about 10-3-7b, sorry but that is not my interpretation of that rule, nor is this the situation decribed. A1 did not delay anything and the ball came right back to him. Not even the casebook covers this specifically, so what are you talking about? No delay, not a technical and common sense wins out here. But then again you think giving a T for a kid cursing to himself is warranted. What else should be expected from you Tony?

You can expect me to know the rules!

NF 2-7-4
The officials shall conduct the game in accordance with the rules. This includes prohibiting practice during a dead ball, except between halves.

I've never called this and probably never would unless the player was warned and did it again.

And, no, I don't give technical fouls to players who curse at themselves under their breath. I defy you to find a post where I have ever made such a statement. In NC, we are required to eject players who direct profanity an opponent, a fan or an official. Sorry if you don't like the rule, but I am required to follow.

Don't argue with me about the rules, Rutledge. You can't win.

[bard]

Personally, I handle like Padgett did and 'T' the kid if he does it a 2nd time. Unless I've called for the ball and he's really blowing me off. He'd have to be sportin' quite a 'tude to get the 'T' in that situation.

[Brian Watson]

I think this is just one of those situations you need to handle professionaly.

Is there a rule, yes. do you want to enforce it, probably not. Unless a kid starts chucking half court threes, or dunking after every whistle, I am just going to have a polite conversation with him.

I know I will probably get blasted, but I did make this call once.

Ball gets kicked OOB, Coach A catches it. I walk over with my hands out for the ball. When I am bout 2 feet away, Coach A, from OOB shoots it. Bang.

Worst part for me was, I called the T post release, and prior to it going in. Crowd went nuts twice.

[JRutledge]

So I guess when A1 is fouled by B1 (non-shooting foul) and immediately A1 takes a shot that is "practicing" to most of you. I look at "practicing" during dead balls, as them running a quick layup drill or shooting FTs during a timeout. 2-7-4 does not even have a casebook play that backs this up.

Now my question is to the rest of you, if this rule is clearly stated in your mind, why would you not give the kid a T? You are convinced he violated something, why not a T? I personally think your interpretation is a stretch. I do not think the intent of the rule was to prevent every single dead ball shot. Especially when the kid did not run after the ball, then put up a shot. I have seen this a 100 times on TV or in an actual game I am witnessing, and not a single official seems to address it. I feel because it does not violate the "spirit" of the rule. The "spirit" to me would be when a kid going after the ball and the official clearly avoiding the officials orders or demands and shooting FTs. That did not happen, the ball came right back to A1 and it was described that he immediately put up a shot.

I just do not see the injustice.

Peace

[devdog69]

Originally posted by JRutledge
So I guess when A1 is fouled by B1 (non-shooting foul) and immediately A1 takes a shot that is "practicing" to most of you. I look at "practicing" during dead balls, as them running a quick layup drill or shooting FTs during a timeout. 2-7-4 does not even have a casebook play that backs this up.

Now my question is to the rest of you, if this rule is clearly stated in your mind, why would you not give the kid a T? You are convinced he violated something, why not a T? I personally think your interpretation is a stretch. I do not think the intent of the rule was to prevent every single dead ball shot. Especially when the kid did not run after the ball, then put up a shot. I have seen this a 100 times on TV or in an actual game I am witnessing, and not a single official seems to address it. I feel because it does not violate the "spirit" of the rule. The "spirit" to me would be when a kid going after the ball and the official clearly avoiding the officials orders or demands and shooting FTs. That did not happen, the ball came right back to A1 and it was described that he immediately put up a shot.

I just do not see the injustice.

Peace

It is not at all about that Rutledge. No one here has said they would have given a technical in the original situation. Common sense and, as you say, the "spirit" of the rule says you should just ask the kid not to do it again. What it is about, is you not knowing the rule. You said "But I would never T a kid for something not covered specificially in the rules like this. It just would not be good common sense." It most certainly is covered in the rules and needs to be so we would have reason to assess a technical if the player ignores our request to stop and continues to delay the game. Stop changing the subject and admit you didn't know it was a rule.
Peace.

[BktBallRef]

You didn't even know the rule existed but you're now sure that the spirit of the rule hasn't been violated. Caught again and you're covering your tracks. Who here is surprised?

Yes, the rule is designed to prevent players from shooting a shot or shots during dead ball periods. No, it doesn't have to be a lay-up drill to be considered a violation of this rule. The rule isn't designed to penalize a player who takes a shot as a continuation of play, after the whistle is blown.

And, no one here has advocated calling the T. Why? Because we don't call the game strictly by the rule book. Nor do we ignore things that must be called. This is a situation where judgment, combined with rules knowledge, makes the decision.

Brian, I don't have a problem with the T you called. The coach was obviously trying to show you up. Whether he was a good shot or not is of no consequence.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jul 1st, 2002 at 10:46 AM]

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by devdog69
It is not at all about that Rutledge. No one here has said they would have given a technical in the original situation. Common sense and, as you say, the "spirit" of the rule says you should just ask the kid not to do it again. What it is about, is you not knowing the rule. You said "But I would never T a kid for something not covered specificially in the rules like this. It just would not be good common sense." It most certainly is covered in the rules and needs to be so we would have reason to assess a technical if the player ignores our request to stop and continues to delay the game. Stop changing the subject and admit you didn't know it was a rule.
Peace. [/B]

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by devdog69

It is not at all about that Rutledge. No one here has said they would have given a technical in the original situation. Common sense and, as you say, the "spirit" of the rule says you should just ask the kid not to do it again. What it is about, is you not knowing the rule. You said "But I would never T a kid for something not covered specificially in the rules like this. It just would not be good common sense." It most certainly is covered in the rules and needs to be so we would have reason to assess a technical if the player ignores our request to stop and continues to delay the game. Stop changing the subject and admit you didn't know it was a rule.
Peace.

Give a T then. It is a rule. How can you look at yourself in the mirror and not give a T?

The casebook is for the interpretations, not the rulebook unless specifically covered. This is not specifically covered and is not in the casebook. Kid did not ignore Mark, nor delay the game. If that is the case, call Ts on coaches that have the ball roll to them or players and they do not immediately give the ball right back to you after you ask. Go looking for trouble all you want, I am going to ALWAYS TRY to avoid Ts at all cost and this is one of those times. Especially when there is nothing that covers this specific situation.

You are right, I have never seen or known of a casebook play that covers this. To me this is a big reach on your part or anyone that really wants to give a kid a T for this.

Peace