Do you make a call here? - Page 2

rockyroad · #16 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 01, 2002, 11:56am

Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge

Give a T then. It is a rule. How can you look at yourself in the mirror and not give a T?

You are right, I have never seen or known of a casebook play that covers this. To me this is a big reach on your part or anyone that really wants to give a kid a T for this.

Peace [/B]

Oh for God's sake...no one has said they would T the kid for this...and as was pointed out before, you are simply changing the subject to cover your butt because you didn't know there was a rule...and as was also pointed out, no one is really surprised by that!

ChuckElias · #17 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 01, 2002, 12:00pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Quote:

It is covered in the rules. It's illegal and it's a technical foul. Mark is simply asking if anyone would call it.

NF 2-7-4
The officials shall conduct the game in accordance with the rules. This includes prohibiting practice during a dead ball, except between halves.[/B]

You know, I just HATE it when somebody points out a rule that I've totally forgotten. It doesn't happen too often, but this is one of those times. I don't spend enough time in rules 1, 2, and 3.

Having said that, is there any mention of what the penalty for taking a practice shot is? Why are we assuming that it must be a T? Maybe it's a violation. The other question is whether every shot (during a dead ball) is considered practicing. If the ball bounces back to the kid, and he just puts it up again, I'm not sure I'd consider that practicing. If he goes thru his whole FT routine, then ok, he's obviously practicing. I guess my point is that it just seems way too murky to give a T for taking a FT during a dead ball. I stick with my original comment. Tell him not to do it again.

Now that I've spouted off again, I suppose one of you guys will pull some clause out of Rule 10 and show me that it has to be a T, and I'll just look stooopid again

Chuck

JRutledge · #18 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 01, 2002, 12:18pm

That is the point Chuck. We have to assume that any dead ball shot is "practicing." Because under Rule 10 this is not specifically covered. If you want to say 10-3-7b applies which states, "Failing when in control, to immediately pass to the nearer official when a violation or foul is called," to me that would be a stretch. This is the only thing that might suggest that a T is warranted or that a rule has been violated.

And for those that keep saying I suggest that you would give a T, you need to look deeper in the comments I made. I do not think a rule has been directly violated here. So calling it or not is not the issue. I am saying there is no specific rule that covers this or suggest that a delay of any kind has taken place. So in order to call something, you have to suggest that a rule has been violated. I claim nothing has been done wrong either way. And if it has, this would have had to have been done several times for me to even consider taken any action. I might say something to the kid, but that does not mean I would seriously consider calling a T or not considering a T.

Again, this is a situation for the casebook. No such play, no call to make. It is that simple for me.

Peace

JoeT · #19 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 01, 2002, 12:32pm

Just weighing in...

I HAVE seen a similar play called as a T. During a dead ball, a player (frosh boys) took a quick shot, and whack.

Nevertheless, I agree with the restraint suggested by most. Another interesting angle is that the rule cited specifically prohibits *practicing* but does not specify that it is *shooting* practice. I am fairly confident that if a player took a little dribble between his legs before passing us the ball, none of us would T him for "practicing his ballhandling." Thus I think it is necessary to do a bit of interpretation of the reason for the rule and the spirit of the rule and to decide whether we would really be improving the game by calling the T.

JRutledge · #20 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 01, 2002, 02:12pm

2-7-4 applies here or 10-3-7b.

You either buy that we have "practicing" here or a delay of some kind.

If this is "practicing," JoeT is correct about ruling other actions as "practicing." So any pass, dribble or shot must be considered "practicing" if you buy that argument or to stay consistent in that interpretation. I personally think that rule was put in to prevent from players shooting shots during timeouts and obvious dead ball situations that has nothing to do with play. To me, this situation Mark gave is not specifically covered as a situation to warrant a T.

The other is simply a delay. Considering that the ball came right back to A1 and he immediately took a shot, while players are coming into the game, I see no delay. Again, this situation was not specifically covered in my opinion. No casebook play at all to cover the ambiguousness of this play. Because of that fact, it would be reaching for me to say this is even what the rule intended.

You can completely disagree with my points, you have that right. I think this situation is not why these rules were created.

Peace

Dan_ref · #21 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 01, 2002, 02:35pm

Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge
2-7-4 applies here or 10-3-7b.

...I personally think that rule was put in to prevent from players shooting shots during timeouts and obvious dead ball situations that has nothing to do with play. To me, this situation Mark gave is not specifically covered as a situation to warrant a T.
...
Peace

This is what Mark P wrote:

Boys varsity summer league. A1 is at the line to shoot the first of two shots. I am lead in two man. He misses and the ball bounces off the bracket right back at him. My partner waves subs in and A1 takes a "practice shot" while I am calling for the ball.

What about this is NOT an obvious dead ball???? How is
taking a practice FT while waiting to shoot your real FT
not......practicing???? (Note the pregnant pause for
dramatic effect here. Kinda like Cpt Kirk from the old
Star Trek:

Kirk: "Bones, how could this not....be.........practicing?"
Bones "Dammit Jim, I'm a doctor, not a referee!"
Spock: "Highly illogical, Captain."

BTW, I don't think I've ever given a T for this type of
thing and I hope I never will. But it's there in the rules.

Mark Padgett · #22 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 01, 2002, 02:53pm

Wow - I never thought this would spark so many comments. One point I was trying to make was that this situation is different, IMHO, than some kid taking a shot after a whistle - which is something we see all the time. In my case, we had a kid who just missed a FT (it was long) and he took a "practice shot" to measure his next shot. I think that's different than just some kid who just had a violation called on him, or perhaps stopped because a timeout was called, tossing the ball up at the basket.

BTW - when a kid shoots after the whistle, I usually say, "Don't shoot after the whistle. It confuses the scorer and he's not too sharp to begin with." It usually gets a laugh, but one time a kid looked at me and said, "that's my Dad....and actually, you're right."

JRutledge · #23 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 01, 2002, 03:46pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref

This is what Mark P wrote:

Boys varsity summer league. A1 is at the line to shoot the first of two shots. I am lead in two man. He misses and the ball bounces off the bracket right back at him. My partner waves subs in and A1 takes a "practice shot" while I am calling for the ball.

[/B]

Whatever you say Dan. I am still sticking to the logic I gave and JoeT gave and Chuck gave. I do not think it is practicing. If you do, life will go on.

Peace

AK ref SE · #24 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 01, 2002, 03:56pm

I throw my two cents into this.......Game management comes into play, whether it is consider praticing or not! IT is covered in the rules (some will not agree(my opinion)). Just like contact is a foul if you read the rule, basically any contact on the person with the ball. Do we call all contact? NO! We each decide what amount of contact is consider a foul and what isn't. We each must decide what we consider practicing or not and handle it accordingly.
I would tell the player that what he/she did was not appropriate, would not say anything more!

I would say what the FT shooter did was practicing. In the spirit of the game or rules I would warn the Shooter!

AK ref SE

ChuckElias · #25 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 01, 2002, 04:36pm

I'm not trying to be a smart-@$$ (yeah, sure), but nobody answered my question. Rule 2 says it's prohibited to practice, but there's no penalty listed. Why are we so quick to say that it's a T? Maybe it's just a violation. You take away the ball, or the FT, and continue on. Any thoughts?

Chuck

rainmaker · #26 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 01, 2002, 05:21pm

Isn't there something somewhere about not immediately getting the ball to the ref? That's unsportsmanlike, if I remember correctly.

JRutledge · #27 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 01, 2002, 05:24pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
I'm not trying to be a smart-@$$ (yeah, sure), but nobody answered my question. Rule 2 says it's prohibited to practice, but there's no penalty listed. Why are we so quick to say that it's a T? Maybe it's just a violation. You take away the ball, or the FT, and continue on. Any thoughts?

Chuck

Good point Chuck. If you look at the other things that fall under 2-7, not a single thing has a penalty. Not only that, they are just duties of what we do as officials. Not a single one has a consequence, not that there would be on, but there is nothing to support mosts arguement.

And if you look under at Rule 10, I do not see a single behavior that this would fall under really. I guess you could say 10-3-7, but other than assuming, there is nothing that supports this being a T or any penalty for that matter.

But what do I know, I do not know the rules.

Peace

Jurassic Referee · #28 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 01, 2002, 05:32pm

Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge

But what do I know, I do not know the rules.

[/B]

Amen!

JRutledge · #29 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 01, 2002, 05:41pm

Probably not.

Peace

Jurassic Referee · #30 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 01, 2002, 05:42pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
I'm not trying to be a smart-@$$ (yeah, sure), but nobody answered my question. Rule 2 says it's prohibited to practice, but there's no penalty listed. Why are we so quick to say that it's a T? Maybe it's just a violation. You take away the ball, or the FT, and continue on. Any thoughts?

Chuck

The rule is written as all-inclusive.It has to cover the actions of both teams,offense and defense,at all times other than between the halves.If the defense commits the illegal act under R2-7-4,a violation could not possibly be a penalty(except during a FT).That's why a T is the penalty.This particular call was spelled out in a POE many,many years ago as a T,but I don't keep my books that long.Maybe MTD Sr. has got a reference somewhere in his library.