Interesting situation

[Orangeguy06]

This is pretty lengthy but it reads well. Fairly interesting with a surprise ending!





Setting: Finals of 125# class at Sectional in Merrill, WI. Saturday February 18, 2006
Parties: Ryan Johnson, Hudson Senior
Karl Johnson, Menomonie
Coach Menomonie
Coach Hudson
Coach Merrill
Referee of match
standby referee Glen Goessl
Table workers
Other Facts:
· Ryan Johnson, Hudson lose match he must wrestleback of Merrill for true 2nd
· Only the first two places move on from sectional to compete at State
· Ryan Johnson has wrestled, and beaten, Karl Johnson twice this year.
· A "pigtail" match is a match which is appended to the first round matches.
For example, if there are 17 contestants to be entered on a 16 person
bracket, the 17th wrestler may be "pigtailed" onto the bracket


Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:37 pm
Probably one of the most interesting things I have witnessed in wrestling: Johnson, Hudson vs. Johnson, Menomonie. MEN is winning 5-2 with maybe a minute left in the 3rd. HUD gets the takedown, rides for a few seconds cuts him loose, 6-4 MEN. Hudson scores another takedown and in the scramble MEN stands and is immediately taken down again by HUD with NO loss of control. HUD is awarded his original takedown, MEN is given an escape, HUD an additional takedown, 8-7 HUD with maybe 20 seconds left. MEN switches, HUD holds on for the stalemate, but MEN is awarded 1 point technical violation with 5 seconds left, 8-8. HUD coach flies out to the CENTER of the mat, referees say nothing to him. Merrill's coaches come to the mat to argue to, their kid needs MEN to win so they can get the wrestleback. After a LONG discussion, technical violation taken away, HUD winns 8-7. Gym erupts in boos for the poor reffing. 130 wrestles HUD coaches called to the head table, 135 wrestles, 140 goes out to the mat to wrestle and is called back. Johnson and Johnson sent back out at 125 to wrestle 5 seconds of bad time, score 8-8. MEN gets TD in overtime, HUD loses wrestleback to MER. In a little over an hour HUD goes from being sectional champ to LEFT OUT. I believe they got it right in the end, but what a tough way to go.
Does anyone have any clarification on what was going on here?

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they rewrestled due to bad time from misapplication of the rule. hudson apparently grabbed his own singlet to prevent a score
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Interesting, doesn't rule 6.6 say all mistakes need to be corrected before the offended wrestler leaves the mat area? I am gald they got it right in the end, but it sure is a crappy way to go after you think you've won the championship.
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Hudson showed some of the worst sportsman ship i've ever seen. it got so bad their coach got the cops called on them.
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They got it right in the end but getting there was interesting. The ref made the call and blew his whistle with 5 seconds left. Then on-deck ref Glen Goessl and the ref for the match talked about it for about 8-10 minutes. The match ref then waived off the point. Menominee immediatly protested which allowed them to go out and wrestle the bad time and then overtime.
The referees were for the most part pretty poor for a sectional.
The Hudson coaches were adamant to say the least. They even approached another ref to discuss the situation. That ref is an attorney, maybe they were discussing a lawsuit regarding the situation.
In the end the right call was made and that is the most important thing
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don't think you can really complain about the Hudson coaches. Sure, they probably got it right in the end, but you gotta feel for the Hudson kid, Sectional champ, trip to madison, wait....nope, he goes home.
AND YODER GOT ABSOLUTELY HOSED IN HIS WRESTLE BACK , no arguing that, it was a text book gramby. i would probably have been taken away in cuffs if it were me.
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Bull **** i dont agree with the call on johnson. the least they could of done was figure it out on the match and go into OT and wrestle then. they had to pull Johnson out of the shower and tell him he's not a sectional champ yet. he has to finish his match and go into OT. i cant even amagine what an emotional rollercoaster he was on today. sectional champ.....nope........wrestle back..........nope........goin home.....what a way to end a senior year.
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If this really happened, then there are some problems with this thing.
1) The Merrill coaches have no right to be on that mat. I don't care if the Merrill 125 has something riding on it. They should not be allowed to do that. Could you imagine if any other coaches did that to Merrill? I don't want to hear anything about the circumstances either. It's not right.

2) I've seen Ryan and Karl wrestle twice this year (Ryan was 2-0). Ryan is better conditioned, and it sounds like he was again today as evidence with 2-3 takedowns with less than a minute left in regulation. They (refs, WIAA) cannot let this happen. To wrestle the OT x minutes after their match was done is inexcusable. It was completey unfair to the wrestler who bust his butt conditioning (Ryan) to prepare for the end of matches, and in this case, OT. Ryan most likely would have won in OT. I'm not saying Ryan definitely wins, but sitting around for x minutes after the match completely favors Karl.
At the very least, Ryan and Karl should re-wrestle the match. If Ryan wins, he is Sectional champ and Karl is second. If Ryan loses, he stays home. If Menomonie is able to file a protest, then Hudson should be able to file one as well. This will not happen though. WIAA will chalk it up as another case a wrestler or team whining about the result. The old "Life isn't fair" routine.
This is absolute garbage if this really happenend. There is no way the refs can decide to do a match like this.
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i concur, i've known bothe wrestlers for quite a while, Ryan is clearly the better wrestler, i know that i've aready contacted the WIAA on this issue, it's completely rediculous, no ands, ifs, or buts about it, just ask every team except Menomonie and Merrill
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The bottom line is, in the end they got the call right, and the right kids qualified for state. You can argue all you want, but the bottom line is THEY GOT THE CALL RIGHT. I feel bad for the Hudson kid but, If the ref made a wrong call, you have to give him credit for correcting it and making it right.
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You know, I wrote a long rambling about how much I disagree with what has happened, but I found this 'major rule change' for 2005-2006 season-

5-1-4: The definition for Bad Time has been expanded to include any errors in match scoring.

If Mr. Goessl was on the matside, I'm sure this is the reason it was overturned. He's a great man and referee that knows the rules like the back of his hand. This rule was implemented properly; however, I think this situation should've been resolved before the wrestlers left the mat. On the otherhand, the rule is what it is, and that's why it was happened as such. The reason the matches kept going is probably a lot to do with the host site wanting to keep things moving. My guess is the referees were talking about the bad call (coming from the fact that they talked for "eight to ten minutes"), so the tableworkers and another referee started the next match. I have now clue how it actually went down, but that seems like it's a reasonable explanation.
Even if the Hudson coaches would appeal the decision, there's a rule backing the referees. An appeal won't hold up.
I feel terrible for the wrestler who lost his shot at state, but let's think about the guy who is going to state in his place. If we sit here saying he doesn't deserve it, he's going have a horrible experience when he should be having the time of his life (thus far).
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Who was the ref?
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The time they took to make it right is unacceptable and unfair.
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another point-the Hudson kid had thought he had won, and was now happy and satisfied, and was no longer focused on the match, while the Men. kid was still angered, and wanted another chance, thus keeping his head focused. Thats why he won, not bcuz he is better. We will never get to know now.
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If Mr. Goessl knows his rules then he should be well aware that the rules and regulations of the WIAA were clearly violated. The rule states errors by the timekeeper,scorer or referee must be corrected prior to the offended contestant (Menomonie kid) leaving the mat area if additional wrestling is necessary. Another rule indicates the situation cannot be corrected by further wrestling due to the fact that 3 subsequent matches took place and both contestants as well as the referees and coaches left the mat.
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ya, what do they think? this is pro football? 10 Min's!...it's simple, just go back and see what the rule book says! if it says, you have to make a decision BEFORE they leave the mat, THEN THEY WERE WRONG! and it should be justified!.. but if it does not say one way or another? then the call SHOULD STAND!...now, wasn't that easy?... we must go by the RULE BOOK! other wise, ref will be ABOVE THE LAW! and we can not afford to let that happen now can we.... so don't put more into it than there is!...follow the book! thats what it's there for, i think?
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I think last year the NJ state champ was DQ'd for throwing his headgear in celebration. The matside ref called him on it and he lost the title. The courts sided with the ref.
If nothing else, this is an embarassment to the situation.
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In the Johnson v. Johnson redo, the way it was done was like letting two cross country runners redo the last 100 yards of the race after a 20 minute breather. The result might be different than if you reran the entire race.
personally i though Ryan johnson would of won because of the momentum he had in the last minute of the third period. Karl johnson was out of shape and looked very exhausted at the end, but the 20 minute breather was rediculous. i agree
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Being from eastern WI and a wrestling fan for years I cannot help but comment on the 125 match at Merrill. I saw a very exciting and entertaining match turn into a fiasco due to referees involved. The whole incident was appalling. At the conclusion of that match (Ryan Johnson winning 8 - 7) that match was done. Everything that went on after that should never have have been allowed due to WIAA rules governing WIAA Wrestling tournaments. Right on the WIAA website and in the official WIAA high school handbook there is a summary of the rules. One rules in the summary applies to protests. It specifically says that protests are not allowed in WIAA tourney action. Given that the the regional and sectional tourneys give out WIAA placards one would have to assume that that statement applies to the regionals and the sectionals. If it does then referees involved clearly made a huge mistake in allowing a protest that resulted in a kid losing his sectional championship. I feel very sorry for Ryan, he was robbed. I also am ashamed that it happened on the eastern side of the state. I thought we knew wrestling better that that.
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i hear there is still a possibilty that ryan could go to state. The hudson coaches has obviously protested and they have a very strong case but i would be very suprised to see it overruled
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I can not believe what horrible calls the refs had made on saturday against not only Ryan Johnson, but also Nick Yoder. Ryan was not trying to grab his own singlet to stop the move, but he was trying to reach for Carl Johnson's hand for control and Ryan gets screwed because of it. How can you expect Ryan to come back from being pulled out of the showers thinking that he has made it to state his senior year and tell him to wrestle overtime against Carl! I have never seen anybody so happy as Ryan when he won that match and then have that taken away was rediculous! Nick Yoder had secured the gramby and should have won that match, with backpoints. but he didn't even get an excape either. It was a textbook gramby to win the match. The Hudson fans were not unsportsmanlike. They got screwed. If we were in anyother school than Merrill, i gaurentee Nick Yoder and Ryan Johnson would be on their way to state! Also, to clear up the police incident, the cops didn't come because of Hudson's coach, they came for a fan that was telling the truth to the officials.
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The Menomonie coach questioned the application of a rule. The rule book states this must be done in front of the scorer's table. What happened here is the referee made the call the match resumed until completion. Then, the referee and the coach left the gymnasium and found a private room to discuss the misapplication of the rule, I presume thumbing through a rule book and case book. This was done without anyone knowing, not the Hudson coach or the Hudson wrestler.
Can you imagine if everytime a coach on any particular Saturday demands the referee go with him to a private meeting to discuss a rule interpretaion? That is absurd.
When the referee found what he needed to see, 5-15 minutes later, they called the Hudson Coach to the head table and told him to get his kid ready to wrestle. They got their kid out of the shower and had to re-tape his hand within about 4 minutes.
If this rule stands, the precedent would be far-reaching. A coach can demand the referee meet with him after each and every match. That is going to make Saturdays awfully long next year.
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I respect Merrill's program, and I know they wrestle hard. I don't know their coaches personally, but I have heard good things about Coach Arneson and everything he does with wrestling not only for Merrill but for Wisconsin.
Mr. Arneson, please do the right thing here! I know that you know what's right here. Please do not get caught in this fiasco and ruin your reputation as a leader and well respected coach in Wisconsin wrestling. Consider everything that took place. Would you want one of your wrestlers to ever have to go through what Ryan Johnson went through? Please pull Schneider and make things right. This entire situation sucks, but you can still make this right.
Please also note that this is not the first time Menomonie has been in the middle of controversy this year. I will just say that some of their tactics this year have been questionble, underhanded, and unethical at best. Ask the other Big Rivers Conference coaches.
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The only thing Menomonie had to do with this was being there. The referees caused this situation. In the end, they got the call RIGHT for the match, but there is no way that a kid should be pulled out of the shower and forced to rewrestle bad time, etc. The match was
OVER, end of story (or so it should have been). Menomonie was robbed during the match when the technical violation was taken away. Hudson was robbed after by another misapplication of another rule. At this point there is no fair way to resolve this situation. You cannot pull Schneider for Hudson's sake. I think the fairest was to resolve this is to have Hudson/Menomonie wrestle a rat tail/wrestle-in for that spot on Thursday.
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Sun Feb 19, 2006 7:21 pm

After searching the WIAA Rules & Regulations and finding pertinent information that seems to support Hudson's position, one thing is very clear to me. I would not want to be in the position of the board that decides this matter before them.
The facts remains:
1. Both coaches stated their cases,
2. Two referees conferred and then reversed the decision (if a penalty point was to be awarded this was the time to bring it to a tie and go into overtime the referee's decided no penalty occurred)
3. They declared Ryan Johnson from Hudson the 125 lb sectional champion,
4. All wrestlers/coaches left the mat a new match began
5. Coaches from Menononie and Merrill (not Hudson?) and a referee went into the official room,
6. During the 140lb match the name of the Hudson coach was called to the head table - next thing you know the 140 lb wrestlers are done wrestling and both Johnson's are out on the mat again.
The facts will speak for themselves. Let's hope for our young wrestlers this NEVER happens again! Good Luck to all wrestlers.
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This whole situation is ridiculous. I think everyone agrees, but two other things that aren't getting a lot of attention that really surprised me are:

1. Hudson's coach was allowed to run to center of the mat after the original TV call without penalty. Obviously he was upset, but tell me he wouldn't have been penalized had the call stood and the referee refused to discuss it.
2. Merrill's coaches were allowed to have any say in the matter. Obviously we all understand their stake in the matter, but to allow them a place in the conference at the scorer's table during the match was way out of line.
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There is no way to fix this trainwreck. Too bad for all the kids involved. I like the idea of letting the two wrestle a rat tail at state. The officials messed this up so badly, they ought to make an exception and let both guys compete and qualify.
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Sorry, not buying it. Pulling a referee into a private room to hash things out? Were Merrill coaches there as well or was it just Menomonie? NO Hudson coaches were asked to be there nor were present. This is very unethical and devious. To say Menomonie was only guilty of "being there" is completely inaccurate. If a Merrill coach was present at that private meeting means they have blood on their hands as well. I don't know if Merrill was present though so I don't want to get ahead of myself. There comes a point when you have to do the right thing instead of looking out for your own wrestler. No pig-tails at State. Ryan = Sectional Champ and Karl = Runner-up
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Wow I hope the WIAA makes a public statement about this bizarre incident. Rewrestling bad time 20 minutes later is absolutely asinine. Everything about the match cannot be reconstructed, including conditioning which sounds like the biggest factor.
The refs whoever they were should be disciplined in some way. Whether the right or wrong call was made it should have been dealt with immediately and definitely not in some meeting room. If they couldn't come up with a call then let the mat call stand pat.
No coaches in the state would have put up with this if it would have happened to their individual. Can you imagine Coach Benitz or Coach Berceau if one of their kids got pulled from the shower to rewrestle bad time.
Don't know either wrestler but one kid got shafted. Rattail seems fair to me but that won't fly. I just hope some kind of official explanation can be given by those responsible so sense and closure can be made.
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It will be very interesting to follow this through to the end. It is my guess the WIAA will do nothing with any protest brought forward, because that will be the easiest for them. Because of the incompitance of some officials the problem got magnified and soon several applications from the rule book were coming into play. It is my opinion, that everything that took place after the contestants and official left the mat area should be disallowed and they should be strong enough to admit error and make it right. There is no such thing as calling a young state qualifier out of the showers to do more wrestling that can be called getting it right. I have watched wrestling for nearly 50 years at every level, from kids to D1 college. This may be number 1, if everything I'm seeing on here is at all accurate, as the number 1 blunder. I hope the WIAA steps in and corrects this situation. I know they try to stand behind their officials, which is as it should be, but some things are just not right and this really appears to be one of those things.
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Waukesha South Regional - James Zarate loses when the ref, Hank Stillman really screwed him, giving Zabel of Watertown 4 stalling points in the last 30 seconds when Zabel was riding but doing absolutely nothing but laying on top of him. Zatate, 39 and 0 going into that match ends up losing a wrestle back to Dhein and now he doesn't get to state. It's OK to lose your last match but you can't have the ref be the show - time for Hank Stillman to hand in his whitle. The 275 bracket had 4 of the to 11 ranked wrestlers in it, with Zarate rated 4th.
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4 stalling points in the last 30 seconds seems a bit much. You sure it wasn't the last 1:30. Sometimes that last period seems to take forever.
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Not an upset per se, but Welter avenged 3 earlier losses to Marcis in the Championship tonight, another awesome match. Also, Stephen Monk teched Tyler Hoehn at 112, Monk has been outstanding all year, but a freshman teching an undefeated senior in the sectional finlas? It was fun to watch for a Valley fan.
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Ranger84 - Actually I am objective - I am not from Waukesha North, however, I think I know when a kid gets the shaft. I made the same post on the Sectional site and I was corrected about the time - there were 35 seconds left in the match when the first stall was called. Zabel rode Zarate the whole period. In the second period Zarate rode Zabel the whole period. I agree about Stillman, I always thought he was a good ref -until that match. I do know something about heavyweights, and it is darn tough for a guy who weighs 269 to get up when someone weighing 275 is laying on him. Three calls in 35 seconds is too much.
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Mon Feb 20, 2006 1:57 am
Well first of all, this seems like an extreme case of poor officiating. Just to give you some background on myself, I am a baseball umpire. This is an outrageous situation for the WIAA and the sport of wrestling in general to be in. The basic rule of officiating is to let the participants decide the outcome, not the official. This seems like a VERY bad case of poor officiating. With that said, for any referee or official to change a call they initially make is already a bad start to any situation. A referee should only call what they see. There are many situations where coaches or fans can "talk" a referee into making a call, whether it be stalling, locked hands, or in a pinning situation. I am not saying this is right, but everyone knows that it happens. From what I understand, R. Johnson was ahead by a point in a stalemate situation. When the referee stops the match, he awards the point for the technical violation to K. Johnson making the score tied at eight. To this point, (whether the technical violation call is correct or not) everything has been done correctly. This is where the problems really start to begin. The Hudson coach then steps on the mat to protest the call of the technical violation. I'm not sure of the exact rule here, (so please let me know of the exact rule and/or if I'm completely wrong here) but I would think that this could be determined unsportsmanlike conduct on the Hudson coach for entering the mat, which would amount to a point for K. Johnson. (Possibly error #1 by the referee) And during this, the Merrill coach enters the conversation between the referee and the coaches of the kids involved in the match. At this point, the referee should have told the Merrill coach to leave, being that they had no logical reason to be in the discussion. (Error #2 by the referee) Then, for whatever reason, the referee decides to change his original call. So whatever is said in this meeting between all these coaches and referees, the original referee in the match admits that he made a mistake in the way he called the match to begin with. (Error #3 by the referee) After reversing the original call, the referee (and apparently everyone else) forgets the situation and declares R. Johnson the winner of the match. (Error #4 by the referee, error #1 for both the Menomonie coach and the Hudson coach, but especially the Menomonie coach. I would think even with all the confusion, that someone would remember that there is still time left in the match) Now, whether or not the official and some coaches went to a private room to discuss/review the rulebook, this doesn't matter. At this point, the match is technically over; R. Johnson is Sectional Champion. Anything that happens past this point should be simply DISCUSSION. So when they call the two kids back to wrestle, a question that I'm not clear on would be why is the score tied at eight? From the original post in this thread it seems like as they resume the match with the score being 8-8. How did K. Johnson get the point to tie it and go into overtime? Did he get an escape in the last five seconds of "bad time", or was the score put up incorrectly when they wrestled the last five seconds by the head table? Or, did the official again reverse his call and re-award the point for the technical violation to K. Johnson? Point being, if the score is 8-7 with five seconds left, and K. Johnson doesn’t score an escape, the match would not have gone into overtime to begin with! So, if someone knows this information, or if someone has already posted something on this part of the match, please let me know, because I am very curious about this. (Either way, errors #5 and #6 for the referee, #2 for the coaches for not making sure the score was correct when the match was resumed.) This is a very unfortunate situation for everyone to be in. The outcome that has been reached in this situation is incorrect in my opinion. R. Johnson should not be penalized by poor judgment by the official. I would hope that this official will come forward and share his account of what took place with the WIAA so that they can determine what should be done about this situation. If it were me in his position, for one thing, it would not have gotten this far. Once I signed the bout sheet that would have been the end of my involvement in this particular match. But if I were in his place right now, I would be on the phone with the WIAA trying to get this straightened out. Now I've read how people believe that the overall outcome of this situation is the right outcome, even though it wasn't achieved in the correct manner and this is absurd to me. When the referee determined that the technical violation did not occur and he deemed R. Johnson the winner of the match, and the Menomonie coach didn't stay to protest this decision, the match is over. Period. I would personally be curious as to whether the official signed the bout sheet with the score being 8-7 in favor of R. Johnson after the initial match ended. In all tournaments I have been a part of this is a standard procedure. If I were the Hudson coach, I would be looking into this. The bout sheet became official when the referee puts his signature on it. As for the person who says that the Merrill wrestler should relinquish his spot at the state tournament. I stand in this matter the same place I stood when there were rumors of the Spooner kid at 215 that got his spot sectionals because of an injury default. There is no way I would “give” my spot up. To be fair, he did beat R. Johnson in the wrestleback and for all intensive purposes, he earned his place at state as well. I believe there is no truly “fair” way to resolve this situation, but the best thing the WIAA could do is go back and determine whether or not the referee signed the bout sheet that said Ryan Johnson of Hudson won the match by the score of 8-7 over Karl Johnson of Menomonie. In my opinion, that is the only way the WIAA can overturn this ruling. This is an unfortunate situation to be talking about the week before the state tournament. I hope this gets resolved in a timely fashion, so that whomever gets the call to wrestle in Madison has the time to prepare properly. This is just my two cents worth, having no bias towards either team or participant.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++
First, there is no situation where misconduct on a coach can result in a match point being given to a kid. A "team point" penalty can happen but at sectionals, there are no team points. So if it makes everyone happy, give the Hudson coach a misconduct warning, I'm sure he'll be o.k. with it.

Second, the Hudson coach went on the mat only after the match was stopped because the referee called the Hudson wrestler for grabbing the Menomonie wrestlers singlet. The one thing that was clear was it was the Hudson wresters siglet being grabbed. So in an effort to get that corrected prior to the re-start (5 seconds remaing), the Hudson coach went out to get the refs attention. The Hudson coach was right, because after the discussion, the referee aggreed that it was indeed the Hudson singlet being pulled. That is when the referee changed his call the first time. The table workers told him that they saw Hudson grab his own singlet. The referee determined that to not be a penalty at all, he took the point back off the scoreboard, and everyone went back to their corners. STOP NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If the Menomonie coach wanted to challenge the misapplication of a rule, it was NOW!!!!!!! Right there in front of the scoretable. Prior to the re-satrt of the match. They can get out the rulebook, ask another referee, or whatever. What they can't do it let the match continue to it's completion and then go find the rule book.
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The reason it re-started at 8-8 was because the official went back to his original call and gave the penalty point to Menomonie.
In my opinion the Hudson coach started it down the slippery slope when he ran on to the mat and "talked" the ref out of the penalty point. If he would have just stayed in his corner and let the kids wrestle, the kids would have decided it right there in OT.
From what I saw it was a scramble at the end and the Hudson kid grabed his own singlet to hold on (a violation), it should not have been stopped because Menomonie may have come out on top to win the match.
In the end the calls were right and the matches were wrestled no one was given anything.
I remember a similar thing happening in a 3rd place match last year at the Marshfield sectional. Two kids were brought back to wrestle an OT after several matches because they decided
that there was a scoring error and the match was actually tied. Of course nobdy cared because it didn't decide a state qualifier.
The outcome wouldn't have been any different in other fieldhouse because the refs would have been the same.
The fans didn't get out of control until Yoder lost in OT, who by the way was pinned in the first period.
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Yes, I am adding a whole new level of bizzareness to the story. The referee called Hudson for grabbing Menomonie's singlet, the Hudson coach said that couldn't be since he was 100% sure his own kids singlet was being pulled and the tableworker ultimately made the call, that of Hudson grabbing his own singlet.

Is there anything in this match that the referee did right?
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The reason why the match was called back was because the refferee changed his mind on the Technical violation(misteriously after the merrill coach and menomonie coach had a secret meeting with the ref, without the Hudson Coach), and decided the Hudson kid grabbed his own singlet and that it was a penalty. Which awarded Karl Johnson a point for them to come back after Ryan was in the shower and re-wrestle the last 5 seconds of the match 20 minutes later with the score 8-8. Karl didnt get out in the five seconds and they went into overtime, where Karl scored the takedown with i think it was close to 10 seconds left in OT...... Then Ryan loses in his wrestle back 7-6, the Merrill kid got an escape with 10 seconds left in the 3rd period, ryan shoots in almost gets the take down......time runs out and ryan goes home........

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED....SAW THE WHOLE THING
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why did the ref ask a table worker what he saw. Heck I was in section 1235 row 127 and I saw the whole thing, why didn't he ask me. I have as much say so as any table worker, NONE. The ref made the some bad calls, period.
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I'll try to explain the scoring that you are asking about.
In the regulation match, with 5 seconds remaining, Hudson was ahead 8-7. The ref stopped the match and tied it 8-8, then took the point back and it remained 8-7. They wrestled to completion. Hudson won 8-7.

20 minutes later, when they came to re-wrestle the bad time, the new match started 8-8 with 5 second remaining becuase they decided there should have been a penalty point given.

Hudson rode the 5 seconds and it went into OT tied 8-8.
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After all the garabage during the end of the match, and finally seeing your wrestler's hand raised as the champion, would you have let your athlete grapped out of the shower and go back out there and compete? Did letting R. Johnson go back out there give credibility to the referee's decision? It this now be easier to sort out if R. Johnson had never wrestled the overtime?

I am not trying to question coach hansen's handling of the situation, god knows how difficult it had to be, and I hope I never have to deal with that sort of confusion during an athletic competition, I think my head would have exploded. I am just wondering if any other coaches though about this when they heard about this situation? Would it have been better or worse?
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Compare this analogy. At the begining of the 3rd period, from the neutral position, wrestler A figure 4's the head. Because that is allowed while on the mat, the referee allows it from neutral. 5 points are scored by wrestler A and 6 points are scored by wrestler B. The match ends. Everyone leaves. Later the coach shows the referee that a figure 4 on the head from the nuetral position is a 1 point violation. The ref agrees after seeing it in the book, calls everyone back 30 minutes later to re-wrestle the entire 3rd period (from when the violation occurred).

That is not how badtime works. What that is is a coaches ability to challenge the misapplication of a rule. In the above example. As soon as no significant action is occurring, the referee is mandated to meet with the coach directly in front of the scorer's table. If no misaplication of the rule occurred (in the eyes of the referee), then the coach is warned for misconduct. If there was a misapplication of the rule, then it is corrected.

NOT AFTER THE MATCH HAS ENDED AND EVERYONE HAS LEFT AND THE TOURNEY HAS CONTINUED ON.
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What happens if they couldn't find Ryan Johnson? He had already signed the bout card. Would he have been disqualified?

From now on, if my kid's hand is held up as the winner, I am telling him to run and never be found!
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Now it's getting ridiculous.

You saw a secret meeting, why didn't you tell the Hudson coach so he could get in on it. Looking at the results I'd say the Merrill coaches were pretty busy coaching not sitting in some back room with a ref.

We really should call Oliver Stone to write a story about this conspiricy theory. Were the officials just against Hudson or were they only for Merrill. Because then the question would be why didn't Merrill win all of their wrestle backs? Or how did the officials let a Hudson kid qualify.
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To JustaClone. Pretty good analysis of the situation. Here is some additional info from a reliable source. When the wrestlers returned to the mat the score was declared 8 - 8 because the ref reversed his technical violation call AGAIN. The error count keeps mounting. Because they declared bad time the 5 seconds had to be rewrestled. The WIAA rules should have been adhered to. That would mean resolve it before you leave the mat. If you don't in a WIAA tourney there is no route to protest a judgement call. That is clear in the rule book, so I would agree with you that everything was over at that point. I don't want any of our Merrill wrestlers to be hurt but by this but it is clear from the rules that the 125lb bracket was settled at the end of the Johnson & Johnson match. My eyes are tired trying to pour through the rule book. What the issue is to me is the WIAA going to enforce it's rules or not? If not throw the book away. If so do whatever it is that needs to be done. The delay is not helping anyone and is clearly distracting attention from the premier wrestling event of the year. What makes me sad is that this happened in our town, on our watch. It is obvious from my postings that I am a believer in the structure and rules that are documented in the WIAA rule book. Without them you have chaos as you can already see from the postings. You cannot run state wrestling on emotions and opinions. When there is a controversy you need to fall back on that structure. After seeing what happened and the effect it had on the whole crowd in the gym, I believe WI high school wrestling may have taken a huge step backward. Significant work has been done to structure the athlete's behaviors and how will we continue to enforce that structure when we cannot even follow the basic rules. This is a much bigger issue than anyone understands. It will set a precedent that people will refer to for years to come.
On another front I called some acquaintences on the other side of the state and they said Hudson has video showing that Karl Johnson's hand was on the singlet. Don't know whether it is true or not and per your analysis it should not matter. I feel sorry for all the kids involved
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I will say this, anyone who was in the stands could not have seen the infraction because the wrestlers were faced away from the crowd. The referee was on top of it, but one thing I don't understand is why the ref didn't signal the TV right away. Usually a ref will hold up the locked hands gesture and let the wrestler finish the move. This referee never signaled a TV until after he stopped the action. He stopped the action in the middle of a switch by Menomonie.
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it don't matter if he had a hold of a singlet or not!
it was not called on the mat by the offical!..END OF STORY!
MATCH OVER...
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Yes it was called by the mat offical, on the mat, should have been end of story, but it is just where the story begins. He was then convinced by someone that he was wrong and reversed his call, which he subsequently reversed again.
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Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:37 am
RyanJohnson125
Club Forum Contributor
Ok....since i was the one wrestling the match i will be of some help....

the score was 8-7 with 5 seconds left in the period, the ref blows his wistle and says initially that i was grabbing Karls(Menomonie) singlet.....the coaches rushed over to the scorers table and came to the conclusion that i was grabbing my own singlet(i honestly dont remember doing this but we watched the tape in slow motion and i had his hand, my hand slipped and my fingers went into my leg on my singlet along with his hand)...the ref then decided there was no point for the Menomonie kid. There was 5 seconds left in the third period, i rode him out.. and i was declared the winner. i ran off the match jumped on my coach, hugged my parents, granparents, friends, teammates, i was on top of the world, ive never felt that good before in my life......So i grabbed my gear and wanted to take a shower so i could get out and watch our 145 and 152 pounders who were also in the championship.... i was in the shower when my coach comes in and says your not a sectional champion yet... they reversed the technical violation and need you to re-wrestle the last 5 seconds and then go into overtime with the score 8-8.........my heart drops......he throws me some tape and says "tape up your shoes and thumb we gotta go now!" i throw on my socks shoes and singlet and run out still in shock for what is really happening.(i guess the Merrill coach, the menomonie coach and the ref went off and had a private meeting without our coach and decided to award the Menomonie kid the penalty point in order for us to re-wrestle.....i dont know though i was in the locker room). I come out and they are at 140 it had just under a minute left and i was up right after that match was done. I rode him out the last 5 seconds and it went into O.T....i got taken down with 10 seconds left in overtime. My heart was broken and i kept trying to prepare and get myself ready for my wrestle back but i just couldnt get into the mind set. I went out for my wrestle back unfocused, i still wanted it soooooo bad i didnt want to end my senior year like this. i ended up losing with 10 seconds left, the merrill kid got and escape which made it 7-6, i shot in almost got the takedown and the buzzer rang and that was the end of my season.......i will never forget the emotional roller coaster i was on. Its been a really hard couple of days, but my family has been their for me.

My mom is fileling an appeal to the WIAA about the events that happened on saturday. I really dont want to take a trip to state away from anyone, that is the last thing i would want to do....but i just want to make things right....no matter what the outcome. i know i want it just as bad as them, i got to taste what its was like for 20 minutes and it was awesome. i Hope the WIAA makes the right decision. Because i feel like crap and i know i will have to live with this the rest of my life.

thanks everyone for all the support
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ohhhh i see now! but was it his own singlet? if so, no foul! you can grab you own singlet, but not your opponents...
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How can the last five seconds of a match be wrestled 20 minutes later? And after someone has been declared a sectional champ? My son was a state champ and one of the reasons is because of his endurance. His opponents always ran out of steam when he was coming alive in the third period. He was in alot of overtimes and never lost due to his conditioning and endurance. This is not fair to Ryan Johnson or any other wrestler. Does this mean that the last five seconds of the match could have been done at the end of the tournament, as well? Does this mean that the WIAA will allow this to happen in the future. I agree with the response of the analogy of the cross country runners. You don't run the last 100 yards to determine it's outcome 20 minutes later, after declaring a winner.

Is this about the Merrill coaches trying to give their 125 pounder another chance to make it to state? Face it, their wrestler was out once Ryan Johnson was declared the sectional champion. This is nothing against the Merrill wrestler, but at what point do coaches stop at getting their wrestlers into the state tournament?

How many times does Ryan Johnson have to beat Karl Johnson to prove he is the better wrestler? I'm sure Menomonie was cheering for the Merrill wrestler to win against Ryan Johnson in the wrestle back because they new their Menomonie wrestler had already beaten the Merrill wrestler in the second match. That way if he went up against the Merrill wrestler at State, he would have a better chance at State against him than Ryan Johnson.
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One of the very first rules I was taught about officiating and the first rule I teach to people learning how to be an official is to make the call you see and stand by it. Sure, when you go back to review tape you may learn that you made a mistake, but at the time you make the call you have to be sure of what you are calling and live with the consequences of it. Either way you look at it, whether he was right or wrong to call the technical violation, once the call was made and the match resumed at 8-7, that should be the end of this discussion. I hope the WIAA looks at this situation this way, because if they don't then it will only open the door for other situations like this one.

Whether or not there should have been a technical violation called is something for the referee to learn to make himself a better official for the next time. If I make a bad call in a baseball game (which keep in mind a good official should NEVER admit to during the game at least) I can't go to the rulebook or a videotape after the game, then reverse my call and call the teams back to replay from that point in the game.

I also go back to my point of whether or not the bout sheet was signed by this official after the match ended 8-7. I still believe that at that point, if the bout sheet is signed, match over. Any discussion after this is simply for the purpose of learning only.

I hope the WIAA makes the right decision here, I hate to see someone's career end on such a sour note
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Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:16 pm
First I would like to thank everyone for their support in this difficult time.

It is now official that Ryan Johnson of Hudson is the Champion, Karl Johnson of Menomonie is the Runner-up in the 125 pound weight class.

The generic response that I can give you at this time is that the procedures that were used on Saturday are not in accordance with the National Federation rules and the WIAA.

Lets now turn our focus to the hundreds of kids who are State Qualifiers, rather then these unfortunate events.

Coach Hansen
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As a vocal critic of the WIAA, I would like to commend them on a timely decision in this situation and for making what I believe to be the right decision.

I am extremely critical of the WIAA and how they treat wrestling. I have no prob
lem expressing my displeasure with how I believe wrestling is handled. To be fair to the WIAA, you made the right decision on this one. I'll leave it at that.

[dknight054]

just one point out of that whole mess: a wrestler is not allowed to grasp clothing at all: either his (or her) opponent's or his (or her) own, ANY instance of grasping a singlet for leverage or whatever, even if it's the wrestler's OWN singlet (according to the rulebook and casebook), is a technical violation.

[dknight054]

Jeez, that's a lot of friggin' information...Anyhow, since you posted it, based on the info at hand, here's how it most likely SHOULD'VE been handled:

regardless of how the points were assessed prior to the TV (grasping clothing), the TV SHOULD'VE been assessed. When the coaches "ran to center" as described, both coaches should've been hit with unsportsmanlike penalties and sent away. I guess this didn't happen. Regardless, even though it was the wrong call to wave off the TV, the info at hand says that is what happened. Considering that other matches occured, the rewrestling of bad time and subsequent OT, by rule can not and should not have happened, cut and dried.