Duke vs. Villanova

[TussAgee11]

Somebody at work made an interesting point - not sure when this changed.

When did the NCAA start using officials in the tourney that work the conference of one of the participants?

As for the mechanics, I've come to expect it at the top level of all sports. The double points, the "get up" signal, the "I have nothing" signal, the Ed Hightower fists together at the waste and extend up towards the sky to indicate a push, everything Teddy V does, etc. etc. etc. When in Rome, but it makes it hard for a high school official to learn from watching them on TV with the double whistles, double pointing, larger than life flamboyant mechanics.

MLB umpires are a prime example as well.

Hess was the calling official on the offensive foul and count the basket play. On the replay, he looked like he didn't even know the ball went in, as if it was just an ordinary rebounding foul. For once, the announcers had a right to be confused. I know I was.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Somebody at work made an interesting point - not sure when this changed.

When did the NCAA start using officials in the tourney that work the conference of one of the participants?

Probably all the time since officials work for 2, 3, 4 or even more conferences. Its bound to occur. It is not like football where the crews/officials specifically work for one conference and it may be desireable to have a crew from a neutral confernece, even if only to avoid appearances of unfairness.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Probably all the time since officials work for 2, 3, 4 or even more conferences. Its bound to occur. It is not like football where the crews/officials specifically work for one conference and it may be desireable to have a crew from a neutral confernece, even if only to avoid appearances of unfairness.

I was just under the impression this used to be NCAA policy. If it changed many years ago, and perhaps I missed it nor never thought about it, my bad.

I wasn't critiquing it, I really don't think its much of a problem at all. In fact, I think its better. You get officials on the game that know team and conference tendencies. I wouldn't want a Pac-10 official working a Big East game if I had a Big East official of equal caliber to do it.

As for the mechanics issue, you won't convince me that some of you don't cringe when you see some of the stuff a few of these officials do to communicate a call. This is still amateur athletics. MLB, fine, its all about the show. But it is possible that a high school official works D3, which is under the NCAA banner.

So for that D3 official to want to aspire to D1, and then see D1 officials with crappy mechanics, it's gotta make them cringe a bit.

Again, when in Rome...

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

I was just under the impression this used to be NCAA policy. If it changed many years ago, and perhaps I missed it nor never thought about it, my bad.

I wasn't critiquing it, I really don't think its much of a problem at all. In fact, I think its better. You get officials on the game that know team and conference tendencies. I wouldn't want a Pac-10 official working a Big East game if I had a Big East official of equal caliber to do it.

I am not sure this ever was a policy. I could be wrong, but I do not think this was ever something written.

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

As for the mechanics issue, you won't convince me that some of you don't cringe when you see some of the stuff a few of these officials do to communicate a call. This is still amateur athletics. MLB, fine, its all about the show. But it is possible that a high school official works D3, which is under the NCAA banner.

I will say I am not trying to convince you, but if you understand that the college ranks have different mechanics, then you will get over it. For example, the "No closely guarded signal" was at one time not a NF or HS mechanic. I would hope that there were people smart enough to realize they could not do that at the high school level until that mechanic was adopted. And if you include NCAA Women's mechanics with all their signals, then you are really naive to compare the two levels. At least Men's basketball is in line with things the NF is trying to do. Women's basketball is another issue all together. And as an amateur umpire, I really do not care what the MLB people do. Just like as an amateur football official, I do not look at the NFL for guidance either. Each level has their standards and you if you are looking toward another level then you are not using the right role models.

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

So for that D3 official to want to aspire to D1, and then see D1 officials with crappy mechanics, it's gotta make them cringe a bit.

Again, when in Rome...

I think college officials realize quickly what they can or cannot do. You learn that by going to camp which most college officials will have to do nowadays. Even at the D3 level there are officials that can do things that another or younger D3 official would never get away with. It is not about when in Rome, it is about knowing your place.

Peace

[refguy]

Villanova reminds me of something Tarkanian used to say about their brand of defense back in the day. They can't call em all!! It seems that is their mindset and the game ends up in a slugfest/hockey/lacrosse match instead of the beautiful finesse game of basketball the way it is intended.
If a game has 60 fouls, put air in the whistle. If the players don't stop, they sit.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by refguy

If a game has 60 fouls, put air in the whistle. If the players don't stop, they sit.

And interrupt the flow of the game ???

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Somebody at work made an interesting point - not sure when this changed.

When did the NCAA start using officials in the tourney that work the conference of one of the participants?

Then you would have to eliminate the pool of officials or assign officials at each round that did not make the tournament, if you did what you suggest. Teddy V or Hightower work so many conferences they would only be allowed to work Pac-10 teams playing each other and in the current system there are no match-ups these guys would be able to work based on that way of thinking.

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

As for the mechanics, I've come to expect it at the top level of all sports. The double points, the "get up" signal, the "I have nothing" signal, the Ed Hightower fists together at the waste and extend up towards the sky to indicate a push, everything Teddy V does, etc. etc. etc. When in Rome, but it makes it hard for a high school official to learn from watching them on TV with the double whistles, double pointing, larger than life flamboyant mechanics.

MLB umpires are a prime example as well.

Why would you look towards any level other than your own for examples of good mechanics? These guys (even the MLB Umpires) are not working high school games.

Peace

[26 Year Gap]

Back to the topic: Duke got killed.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

Back to the topic: Duke got killed.

This is always on topic.

[Forksref]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

Back to the topic: Duke got killed.

What is happening with Duke? Six years in a row they have lost to a lower seed.

Is coach K not getting the job done anymore? Is Duke overrated? When Duke gets McDonalds All-Americans, are they All-Americans because they are that good or are they All-Americans because they go to Duke?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Forksref

What is happening with Duke? Six years in a row they have lost to a lower seed.

They must be over-seeded and over-rated.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Forksref

What is happening with Duke? Six years in a row they have lost to a lower seed.

Is coach K not getting the job done anymore? Is Duke overrated? When Duke gets McDonalds All-Americans, are they All-Americans because they are that good or are they All-Americans because they go to Duke?

Don't know but I hope they keep it up!

[jbduke]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

Don't know but I hope they keep it up!

To the haters: enjoy it while it lasts.

As to whys and wherefores, a lot of it's just random variation. If Laettner misses the buzzer-beaters in '90 and '92, the expectations over the last fifteen years are completely different, and this five-year stretch is much less of a story. Note that if those things had happened, K would not be a lesser coach. On the flip-side, Roy Williams said for many years before '05 that winning a title wouldn't make him a better coach, and I respect him for reiterating the point after he did win one.

More randomness: highly touted Josh McRoberts turned out to be a bust, while the much less hyped Tyler Hansbrough turned into a college superstar. No one was faulting K for recruiting McRoberts, nor did anyone foresee his lack of a substantial contribution to the program.

Going further back, Luol Deng leaves one year sooner than expected, and Sean Livingston never shows up on campus after signing a letter-of-intent. Think about this line-up: Livingston, Deng, Redick, Shelden Williams, and Daniel Ewing. That's who Duke would have rolled out in 2005 had things gone as planned. Think that team wouldn't have at least made the Final Four?

In the last few years, Duke has missed out on two bigs who had Duke as one of two finalists: Patrick Patterson and Greg Monroe. What do you think the last two Duke teams would have done with PP? How about this year's team with Monroe in the mix?

The other big issue in the last four years has been the lack of an elite point guard. No one thought this would be an issue when K signed NPOTY Greg Paulus in 2005, but things didn't work out as planned for Paulus, whose major weakness was largely covered up his freshman year when the dribble penetration he allowed was cleaned up by Shelden Williams. By the time the picture had clarified itself at the end of 2007, the USA Basketball commitment for K had ramped up, and that didn't make it any easier to get a true point guard to come in and back up or start over Paulus.

Certainly Duke's recruiting has suffered in the last two years with K putting country above program. Not a complaint, just an observation. With that commitment now over, expect Duke's recruiting to rise to a level at or near where it was in the early nineties when Duke was hot and the team eight miles south had a pretty fair coach itself.

If Henderson comes back next year, Duke will be a favorite to go to Indianapolis. If he doesn't, the team will likely be about where it was this year, with a second-weekend exit, but should be on a strong upward trajectory for what will likely be K's last four or five years.

It's great to still see the hate, as it means Duke is still the gold standard. When it stops being news that they don't make it past the Sweet 16, it's time to worry.

[canuckrefguy]

Originally Posted by jbduke

To the haters: enjoy it while it lasts.

As to whys and wherefores, a lot of it's just random variation. If Laettner misses the buzzer-beaters in '90 and '92, the expectations over the last fifteen years are completely different, and this five-year stretch is much less of a story. Note that if those things had happened, K would not be a lesser coach. On the flip-side, Roy Williams said for many years before '05 that winning a title wouldn't make him a better coach, and I respect him for reiterating the point after he did win one.

More randomness: highly touted Josh McRoberts turned out to be a bust, while the much less hyped Tyler Hansbrough turned into a college superstar. No one was faulting K for recruiting McRoberts, nor did anyone foresee his lack of a substantial contribution to the program.

Going further back, Luol Deng leaves one year sooner than expected, and Sean Livingston never shows up on campus after signing a letter-of-intent. Think about this line-up: Livingston, Deng, Redick, Shelden Williams, and Daniel Ewing. That's who Duke would have rolled out in 2005 had things gone as planned. Think that team wouldn't have at least made the Final Four?

In the last few years, Duke has missed out on two bigs who had Duke as one of two finalists: Patrick Patterson and Greg Monroe. What do you think the last two Duke teams would have done with PP? How about this year's team with Monroe in the mix?

The other big issue in the last four years has been the lack of an elite point guard. No one thought this would be an issue when K signed NPOTY Greg Paulus in 2005, but things didn't work out as planned for Paulus, whose major weakness was largely covered up his freshman year when the dribble penetration he allowed was cleaned up by Shelden Williams. By the time the picture had clarified itself at the end of 2007, the USA Basketball commitment for K had ramped up, and that didn't make it any easier to get a true point guard to come in and back up or start over Paulus.

Certainly Duke's recruiting has suffered in the last two years with K putting country above program. Not a complaint, just an observation. With that commitment now over, expect Duke's recruiting to rise to a level at or near where it was in the early nineties when Duke was hot and the team eight miles south had a pretty fair coach itself.

If Henderson comes back next year, Duke will be a favorite to go to Indianapolis. If he doesn't, the team will likely be about where it was this year, with a second-weekend exit, but should be on a strong upward trajectory for what will likely be K's last four or five years.

It's great to still see the hate, as it means Duke is still the gold standard. When it stops being news that they don't make it past the Sweet 16, it's time to worry.

Want some cheese with that?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by jbduke

If Laettner misses the buzzer-beaters in '90 and '92 AND RICHARD "THE FIXER" PERRY DOESN'T CONVINCE LARRY JOHNSON AND SOME OF THE GUYS FROM UNLV TO THROW THAT SEMI-FINAL GAME IN 1991, the expectations over the last fifteen years are completely different, and this five-year stretch is much less of a story.

Fixed it for ya.