Duke vs. Villanova

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

I was just under the impression this used to be NCAA policy. If it changed many years ago, and perhaps I missed it nor never thought about it, my bad.

I wasn't critiquing it, I really don't think its much of a problem at all. In fact, I think its better. You get officials on the game that know team and conference tendencies. I wouldn't want a Pac-10 official working a Big East game if I had a Big East official of equal caliber to do it.

I am not sure this ever was a policy. I could be wrong, but I do not think this was ever something written.

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

As for the mechanics issue, you won't convince me that some of you don't cringe when you see some of the stuff a few of these officials do to communicate a call. This is still amateur athletics. MLB, fine, its all about the show. But it is possible that a high school official works D3, which is under the NCAA banner.

I will say I am not trying to convince you, but if you understand that the college ranks have different mechanics, then you will get over it. For example, the "No closely guarded signal" was at one time not a NF or HS mechanic. I would hope that there were people smart enough to realize they could not do that at the high school level until that mechanic was adopted. And if you include NCAA Women's mechanics with all their signals, then you are really naive to compare the two levels. At least Men's basketball is in line with things the NF is trying to do. Women's basketball is another issue all together. And as an amateur umpire, I really do not care what the MLB people do. Just like as an amateur football official, I do not look at the NFL for guidance either. Each level has their standards and you if you are looking toward another level then you are not using the right role models.

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

So for that D3 official to want to aspire to D1, and then see D1 officials with crappy mechanics, it's gotta make them cringe a bit.

Again, when in Rome...

I think college officials realize quickly what they can or cannot do. You learn that by going to camp which most college officials will have to do nowadays. Even at the D3 level there are officials that can do things that another or younger D3 official would never get away with. It is not about when in Rome, it is about knowing your place.

Peace

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by jalons

So you are resetting the shot clock when an offensive rebound occurs on an air ball??

Yes, as per the rules that I posted earlier. That's why you were asked if you could read -- the rule and its exceptions were posted in post #15 of this thread. The rule in question is NCAA Men's 2-11-6c.

[Jay R]

Originally Posted by parker27

Never heard of them???? You must not pay much attention to the officials then. Karl Hess and J.D. Collins are all over the place during the year and during the post season. I didn't see the game, but from what you guys say there were some questionable calls....thats fine, but to say they were in over the heads is laughable.

Most regulars would recognize that I was being sarcastic. I just found it strange that someone posted that one of the officials looked way over his pay grade. These three guys are top notch. That does not mean they didn't miss a few last night.

[Jay R]

Originally Posted by jalons

So you are resetting the shot clock when an offensive rebound occurs on an air ball??

Only if the result is a held ball. A airball followed by an offensive rebound is not a reset. In fact, in the Pitt Xavier game; that's what happened on the missed shot clock violation.

[refguy]

Villanova reminds me of something Tarkanian used to say about their brand of defense back in the day. They can't call em all!! It seems that is their mindset and the game ends up in a slugfest/hockey/lacrosse match instead of the beautiful finesse game of basketball the way it is intended.
If a game has 60 fouls, put air in the whistle. If the players don't stop, they sit.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by refguy

If a game has 60 fouls, put air in the whistle. If the players don't stop, they sit.

And interrupt the flow of the game ???

[Forksref]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

Back to the topic: Duke got killed.

What is happening with Duke? Six years in a row they have lost to a lower seed.

Is coach K not getting the job done anymore? Is Duke overrated? When Duke gets McDonalds All-Americans, are they All-Americans because they are that good or are they All-Americans because they go to Duke?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Forksref

What is happening with Duke? Six years in a row they have lost to a lower seed.

They must be over-seeded and over-rated.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by kwv001

Both JD Collins and Karl Hess were final four officials last year!

Of the three, who was the shorter, stockier one? Had brown hair. He stood out. I thought the other two were OK.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by Jay R

Most regulars would recognize that I was being sarcastic. I just found it strange that someone posted that one of the officials looked way over his pay grade. These three guys are top notch. That does not mean they didn't miss a few last night.

Strictly my humble opinion and it wasn't based on the quality of calls. As I mentioned earlier, from my lazyboy, one official in particular to me was having a bad night, you could sense it in his body language, mechanics, etc.

Hey, I'm just a high school official and by no means ripping these guys. I like watching the big dogs and try and learn from them. That said, they are on a big stage and open to opinions from here.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Forksref

What is happening with Duke? Six years in a row they have lost to a lower seed.

Is coach K not getting the job done anymore? Is Duke overrated? When Duke gets McDonalds All-Americans, are they All-Americans because they are that good or are they All-Americans because they go to Duke?

Don't know but I hope they keep it up!

[jbduke]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

Don't know but I hope they keep it up!

To the haters: enjoy it while it lasts.

As to whys and wherefores, a lot of it's just random variation. If Laettner misses the buzzer-beaters in '90 and '92, the expectations over the last fifteen years are completely different, and this five-year stretch is much less of a story. Note that if those things had happened, K would not be a lesser coach. On the flip-side, Roy Williams said for many years before '05 that winning a title wouldn't make him a better coach, and I respect him for reiterating the point after he did win one.

More randomness: highly touted Josh McRoberts turned out to be a bust, while the much less hyped Tyler Hansbrough turned into a college superstar. No one was faulting K for recruiting McRoberts, nor did anyone foresee his lack of a substantial contribution to the program.

Going further back, Luol Deng leaves one year sooner than expected, and Sean Livingston never shows up on campus after signing a letter-of-intent. Think about this line-up: Livingston, Deng, Redick, Shelden Williams, and Daniel Ewing. That's who Duke would have rolled out in 2005 had things gone as planned. Think that team wouldn't have at least made the Final Four?

In the last few years, Duke has missed out on two bigs who had Duke as one of two finalists: Patrick Patterson and Greg Monroe. What do you think the last two Duke teams would have done with PP? How about this year's team with Monroe in the mix?

The other big issue in the last four years has been the lack of an elite point guard. No one thought this would be an issue when K signed NPOTY Greg Paulus in 2005, but things didn't work out as planned for Paulus, whose major weakness was largely covered up his freshman year when the dribble penetration he allowed was cleaned up by Shelden Williams. By the time the picture had clarified itself at the end of 2007, the USA Basketball commitment for K had ramped up, and that didn't make it any easier to get a true point guard to come in and back up or start over Paulus.

Certainly Duke's recruiting has suffered in the last two years with K putting country above program. Not a complaint, just an observation. With that commitment now over, expect Duke's recruiting to rise to a level at or near where it was in the early nineties when Duke was hot and the team eight miles south had a pretty fair coach itself.

If Henderson comes back next year, Duke will be a favorite to go to Indianapolis. If he doesn't, the team will likely be about where it was this year, with a second-weekend exit, but should be on a strong upward trajectory for what will likely be K's last four or five years.

It's great to still see the hate, as it means Duke is still the gold standard. When it stops being news that they don't make it past the Sweet 16, it's time to worry.

[canuckrefguy]

Originally Posted by jbduke

To the haters: enjoy it while it lasts.

As to whys and wherefores, a lot of it's just random variation. If Laettner misses the buzzer-beaters in '90 and '92, the expectations over the last fifteen years are completely different, and this five-year stretch is much less of a story. Note that if those things had happened, K would not be a lesser coach. On the flip-side, Roy Williams said for many years before '05 that winning a title wouldn't make him a better coach, and I respect him for reiterating the point after he did win one.

More randomness: highly touted Josh McRoberts turned out to be a bust, while the much less hyped Tyler Hansbrough turned into a college superstar. No one was faulting K for recruiting McRoberts, nor did anyone foresee his lack of a substantial contribution to the program.

Going further back, Luol Deng leaves one year sooner than expected, and Sean Livingston never shows up on campus after signing a letter-of-intent. Think about this line-up: Livingston, Deng, Redick, Shelden Williams, and Daniel Ewing. That's who Duke would have rolled out in 2005 had things gone as planned. Think that team wouldn't have at least made the Final Four?

In the last few years, Duke has missed out on two bigs who had Duke as one of two finalists: Patrick Patterson and Greg Monroe. What do you think the last two Duke teams would have done with PP? How about this year's team with Monroe in the mix?

The other big issue in the last four years has been the lack of an elite point guard. No one thought this would be an issue when K signed NPOTY Greg Paulus in 2005, but things didn't work out as planned for Paulus, whose major weakness was largely covered up his freshman year when the dribble penetration he allowed was cleaned up by Shelden Williams. By the time the picture had clarified itself at the end of 2007, the USA Basketball commitment for K had ramped up, and that didn't make it any easier to get a true point guard to come in and back up or start over Paulus.

Certainly Duke's recruiting has suffered in the last two years with K putting country above program. Not a complaint, just an observation. With that commitment now over, expect Duke's recruiting to rise to a level at or near where it was in the early nineties when Duke was hot and the team eight miles south had a pretty fair coach itself.

If Henderson comes back next year, Duke will be a favorite to go to Indianapolis. If he doesn't, the team will likely be about where it was this year, with a second-weekend exit, but should be on a strong upward trajectory for what will likely be K's last four or five years.

It's great to still see the hate, as it means Duke is still the gold standard. When it stops being news that they don't make it past the Sweet 16, it's time to worry.

Want some cheese with that?

[Nevadaref]

Actually I don't like Duke because I think that the media gives them too much coverage and over-hypes them. If they were good enough to deserve the press, then I wouldn't mind, but there are so many other programs who are deserving of that attention, and many of them out-perform Duke.

They aren't the gold-standard of anything. They are just a media darling.

That's why I root against them.

[Forksref]

"K putting country above program."

I'VE HEARD IT ALL NOW!! I can hear the music in the background..."Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the lord..." Everyone grab a tissue.

Thanks for sacrificing your team for America! LOL

I've never seen a bigger collection of 'what ifs' and excuses!

And the 'haters' label. If you don't love us, you must hate us. What a simplistic paranoid concept.

What will Duke do without Hansborough to cheap shot??

Will coach K ever drop the profanity-laced tirades against officials? He's the biggest hypocrite in basketball. At least we aren't seeing those morality-based commercials this year with the great moral leader.