Article pointing finger at Racist Referees

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Sure, things are better. Perfect, no...but certainly better. Anyone that says otherwise full of crap or being dishonest...ask them if they'd really like to go back to what it was like 50, 100, or 200 years ago.

All I have to do is look around my workplace and see a large number of non-whites working very well paying professional jobs...and I've been on the hiring team that hired many of them....based strictly on ability. They're also being equally well represented in management....in dramatically stronger numbers than the greater area's demographics. None of that would not have been the case 40 or 50 years ago.

My mom was the first African-American female to be a chairperson at the University when she came to the place she ended up working for 30 years. I think there are exactly zero chairpersons that are African-American woman since she left that post over 20 years ago. And education is a place where many African-Americans attempt to go into. And I just joined a church in the middle of suburbs and it is all-Black (I could have counted two when I attended a couple of Sundays ago). And I have not talked about schools and places people live. If better means that you do not fear for your life if I walked into an area or if I whistled at a woman of another race. But to say that things are so much better is not true. Also we do not have laws that prohibit marriage or dating or even going to schools. But the social differences are often still there.

Honestly I do not give a crap about who is hired in a sport. This area is just a very small area that means anything in the bigger scheme of things. But I would expect if the players, coaches and fans are coming from all kinds of places, I think it is not too much to ask that the officials reflect those things. All the good officials do not just come from one place.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

But I would expect if the players, coaches and fans are coming from all kinds of places, I think it is not too much to ask that the officials reflect those things. All the good officials do not just come from one place.

Peace

Are you really suggesting that the officials match the demographics of the players? Perhaps by selecting officials simply by the color of their skin....just to make the number match? If so, fine, but in the order of consistency and equality, do you also suggest that the the players match the demographics of the area the team represents? That teams can only have players in the same percentages as their school or region?

The more appropriate question to ask is whether the number officials in any given area roughly reflect the area as a whole? Or perhaps, to a lessor degree, the numbers of players from 10-40 years ago since many refs came form the pool of players at that time.

[Mark Padgett]

When I officiate, I do see two different colors - home jersey color and visiting jersey color. Period.

To be scientifically accurate, however, I guess I see only one since home jerseys are white, and white is defined as "absence of color".

Anyway, I would hope to think that all officials are "color blind", except when it comes to reporting which team the foul was on, of course.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

When I officiate, I do see two different colors - home jersey color and visiting jersey color. Period.

To be scientifically accurate, however, I guess I see only one since home jerseys are white, and white is defined as "absence of color".

Anyway, I would hope to think that all officials are "color blind", except when it comes to reporting which team the foul was on, of course.

The numerals on the white jerseys have pigment, though.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Are you really suggesting that the officials match the demographics of the players?

On many levels my answer is yes. Why is officiating different than other aspects of life? My first job out of college I was hired to work in a community that mirrored the people I would be working with on a daily basis. I am sure that was done too for the reasons this article was written.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Perhaps by selecting officials simply by the color of their skin....just to make the number match? If so, fine, but in the order of consistency and equality, do you also suggest that the the players match the demographics of the area the team represents? That teams can only have players in the same percentages as their school or region?

What I am actually considering is you consider everything. Where people live, experience, conferences the officials are from, physical fitness, big game history or any number of things we talk about here as "qualifications." I do not see the harm in looking for diverse crews to work certain games if the result is to give an appearance of fairness.

Cameron, I have worked several games with an all-Black crew. It is amazing in this day and age the amount of comments good and bad that were made about it. When I watch a game on TV or in the playoffs and I see a crew that looks nothing like the players on the floor, no one bats and eye. Even the officials look little like the participants of the fans in the stands. I do not understand why that same consideration cannot be extended to others. To me that is a fair to consider races as one of many factors. I did not say exclude anyone or to never have situations where officials do not reflect who is on the court. I just think there are those in decision making positions that can look for other officials that look more like the participants if possible.

I will say in my state there has been an effort to do just that. I am not saying that this is perfect or that you could not find more, but they are certainly not excluding people from the process. And yes, they consider geography, color, experience, conferences you work, and ratings to make those decisions. This is also not just anecdotal comment, there is some scientific evidence that shows this and the words from the people making those decisions have also made references to those things. Their efforts have diminished the complaints that would take place to a minimum. A few years ago the diversity of the officials was a big deal in a post season game where a coach put it front and center. You do not hear that constant complaining anymore. Out of the 12 officials that worked the State Finals in my state for the Boy's Class 3A and 4A Tournament (big schools), 3 were Black. Out of the 8 teams, 5 were entirely Black teams from the Head coaches, all the players and the water boy. And the top players on the other teams were mostly Black except one school. And that school beat on of the teams out of that five by a last second shot by a player that was Black. Are you telling me that if our state wanted to have more than 3 African-American officials would have been unacceptable considering what the tournament looked like?

At the high school level I feel strongly that this is about education. This is not even the college level. I feel like the participants should have the right to see people in leadership roles that look like them. To me it sends a bad message if you say to the players, you can play the game, but when it comes to running the game you cannot participate. And that is why for younger people what happen in this past election was so emotional for some many.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

On many levels my answer is yes. Why is officiating different than other aspects of life? My first job out of college I was hired to work in a community that mirrored the people I would be working with on a daily basis. I am sure that was done too for the reasons this article was written.



What I am actually considering is you consider everything. Where people live, experience, conferences the officials are from, physical fitness, big game history or any number of things we talk about here as "qualifications." I do not see the harm in looking for diverse crews to work certain games if the result is to give an appearance of fairness.

Cameron, I have worked several games with an all-Black crew. It is amazing in this day and age the amount of comments good and bad that were made about it. When I watch a game on TV or in the playoffs and I see a crew that looks nothing like the players on the floor, no one bats and eye. Even the officials look little like the participants of the fans in the stands. I do not understand why that same consideration cannot be extended to others. To me that is a fair to consider races as one of many factors. I did not say exclude anyone or to never have situations where officials do not reflect who is on the court. I just think there are those in decision making positions that can look for other officials that look more like the participants if possible.

I will say in my state there has been an effort to do just that. I am not saying that this is perfect or that you could not find more, but they are certainly not excluding people from the process. And yes, they consider geography, color, experience, conferences you work, and ratings to make those decisions. This is also not just anecdotal comment, there is some scientific evidence that shows this and the words from the people making those decisions have also made references to those things. Their efforts have diminished the complaints that would take place to a minimum. A few years ago the diversity of the officials was a big deal in a post season game where a coach put it front and center. You do not hear that constant complaining anymore. Out of the 12 officials that worked the State Finals in my state for the Boy's Class 3A and 4A Tournament (big schools), 3 were Black. Out of the 8 teams, 5 were entirely Black teams from the Head coaches, all the players and the water boy. And the top players on the other teams were mostly Black except one school. And that school beat on of the teams out of that five by a last second shot by a player that was Black. Are you telling me that if our state wanted to have more than 3 African-American officials would have been unacceptable considering what the tournament looked like?

At the high school level I feel strongly that this is about education. This is not even the college level. I feel like the participants should have the right to see people in leadership roles that look like them. To me it sends a bad message if you say to the players, you can play the game, but when it comes to running the game you cannot participate. And that is why for younger people what happen in this past election was so emotional for some many.

Peace

So you'd have no problem with picking only white officials then, to the exclusion of black officials, if the players on both teams are white?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

So you'd have no problem with picking only white officials then, to the exclusion of black officials, if the players on both teams are white?

That already happens. Why would I have a problem with this situation?

For the record that very thing happened to me personally in a conference I no longer work. Every game my crew had with this particular conference, we almost always worked this one school that had a Black coach, players and fans. It ended up causing a conflict because we could not get away from this particular school. When we were assigned two all white school and communities (well they had one African-American player between them) we were shocked. I soon stopped wanted to work that conference.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

So you'd have no problem with picking only white officials then, to the exclusion of black officials, if the players on both teams are white?

That already happens.

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

That already happens.

He didn't ask if it happens, he asked if it was acceptable.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Berkut

He didn't ask if it happens, he asked if it was acceptable.

You have a person that is questioning the current system, and people here are defending that system. So it must not be a big deal to those that think everything is peachy.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Berkut

He didn't ask if it happens, he asked if it was acceptable.

If it already happens and has been happening for years I guess it's acceptable already.

Being as I'm 1/2 Black (father, Republican) and 1/2 White (mother, Democrat; plus White step-mother, Democrat) I'm very comfortable any time this type of discussion comes up.

But I will make this comment based solely on my life's observations. When Blacks encounter discrimination and/or bigotry they get upset but they realize it's a part of life and are lot quicker to move on and realize "it is what it is". When Whites encounter discrimination and/or bigotry they react as if it's the worst thing that could ever happen to them and that someone should step in and make sure it nevers happens again. In other words, again based solely of what I have personally observed in my 45 years on earth, Whites have a lot more extreme reaction to being the victim of racism than Blacks do.

Originally Posted by Berkut

If the officer should lose his job, it should be because he is incompetent.

Whether he was incompetent because he is a racist, or incompetent while not being racist is both immaterial and almost impossible to ascertain.

But that race card is just too enticing to leave it unplayed.

It's very possible to ascertain. The officer has friends and co-workers. They know whether or not he is racist. The reason the so-called "race card" is brought out in these situations is because though African-American make up around 11-13% of the US population it seems as though African-Americans are involved in an over-whelming majority of these publicized incidents.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Cameron, I have worked several games with an all-Black crew. It is amazing in this day and age the amount of comments good and bad that were made about it.

What would the context of a good comment be with regard to the fact that the crew was all-anything?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

What would the context of a good comment be with regard to the fact that the crew was all-anything?

"We have never had an all-Black crew before."

"Are you all from here?"

"You guys must be from Chicago" (none of us were)

"Brothas going to help us out tonight."

I could give more examples, but this is a family show and based on how offended people tend to get, I will keep the rest to myself.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

What I am actually considering is you consider everything. Where people live, experience, conferences the officials are from, physical fitness, big game history or any number of things we talk about here as "qualifications." I do not see the harm in looking for diverse crews to work certain games if the result is to give an appearance of fairness.
...

A few years ago the diversity of the officials was a big deal in a post season game where a coach put it front and center. You do not hear that constant complaining anymore. Out of the 12 officials that worked the State Finals in my state for the Boy's Class 3A and 4A Tournament (big schools), 3 were Black. Out of the 8 teams, 5 were entirely Black teams from the Head coaches, all the players and the water boy. And the top players on the other teams were mostly Black except one school. And that school beat on of the teams out of that five by a last second shot by a player that was Black. Are you telling me that if our state wanted to have more than 3 African-American officials would have been unacceptable considering what the tournament looked like?

Peace

Yes, that is unacceptable. Answer this....Since Illinois is ~75% white, do you, in the name of consistency, suggest that several of those teams should have been disallowed from the tourney since they didn't match the population of the state?? ... I didn't think so.

In fact, the officials exactly matched the population of the sate. I'd say that, from looking purely at the numbers, the mix of officials was not suspect no matter how much noise someone made about it.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

At the high school level I feel strongly that this is about education. This is not even the college level. I feel like the participants should have the right to see people in leadership roles that look like them. To me it sends a bad message if you say to the players, you can play the game, but when it comes to running the game you cannot participate. And that is why for younger people what happen in this past election was so emotional for some many.

Peace

If 50% a team is black but only 20% of the school is black, should they kick 3 black kids off the team to make room for 3 white kids...all to make sure the team looks like those around them? (and no, I don't).

Again, the officials in your example above seem to represent the general society almost perfectly. The fact that the all-black team(s) beat the all/mostly-white team(s) from some other area doesn't imply anything about the ability of the officials and should have no influence one way or the other about who is selected to work the tourney. It should be the best 12...and in a large pool, that 12 will resemble the general population.

I can tell you that from the Portland area, the representation of minorities in the state tournament is at a level that is both greater than their proportion of the population and also greater than their proportion of basketball officials. And they're not selected by color either....they are simply getting the recognition of their peers (all officials)..who put them there based on their abilities. In other words, they earned it...it was not handed to them to make some numbers look good.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Yes, that is unacceptable. Answer this....Since Illinois is ~75% white, do you, in the name of consistency, suggest that several of those teams should have been disallowed from the tourney since they didn't match the population of the state?? ... I didn't think so.

In fact, the officials exactly matched the population of the sate. I'd say that, from looking purely at the numbers, the mix of officials was not suspect no matter how much noise someone made about it.


If 50% a team is black but only 20% of the school is black, should they kick 3 black kids off the team to make room for 3 white kids...all to make sure the team looks like those around them? (and no, I don't).

Again, the officials in your example above seem to represent the general society almost perfectly. The fact that the all-black team(s) beat the all/mostly-white team(s) from some other area doesn't imply anything about the ability of the officials and should have no influence one way or the other about who is selected to work the tourney. It should be the best 12...and in a large pool, that 12 will resemble the general population.

I can tell you that from the Portland area, the representation of minorities in the state tournament is at a level that is both greater than their proportion of the population and also greater than their proportion of basketball officials. And they're not selected by color either....they are simply getting the recognition of their peers (all officials)..who put them there based on their abilities. In other words, they earned it...it was not handed to them to make some numbers look good.

I do not think that Illinois is 75% white. For one the largest city in the state is the third largest city in the country and does not have that racial background. And if the entire city of Chicago decided to vote a certain way in an election, Downstate Illinois would be out voted. It might be closer to 50%, but I do not have all the data. But I grew up in rural Illinois and the town I currently live in has more people in that little suburb than where I grew up. Almost every big city in Illinois does not have an overwhelming white population in places like Aurora, Springfield, Peoria and even Rockford.

I do not even know what you are talking about when you say consistency, because most of the officials assigned to tournament assignments do not reflect many of the teams, and I have not been complaining or suggesting that there should be such a representation.

Maybe this is making you upset because someone is telling you that what you think is not the only voice on this topic.

Peace