Article pointing finger at Racist Referees

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

"Year after year, children's dreams are deferred by questionable calls that appear to be biased" (Original article in question.)

The original author did not use the word racism. He did use the word biased, and he says in the rest of the article that the risk of bias increases without diversity. I wonder what the author would deem acceptable diversity in the following situations? If we have two mostly African-American schools? Two all whiite schools? Two schools with sizeable Native American populations? Asian? Gay? Transgender? Muslim? Hispanic?

Why do people want to compare these issues with groups that are not involved? Forgive me but I doubt in Indiana in the Midwest there are "gay" or Trans gender schools. That is not the issue and this is why people can never have these discussions seriously because someone wants to avoid the real issue.

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

I know there is racism. I know there are racist people in basketball. I think we should encourage all sorts of people to become refs. But who will decide what is a diverse crew?

Funny, I did not read the word "racism" in this article. He talked about diversity. It has been said in many circles that certain individuals do not know how to referee certain groups of people because they have been exposed to those groups of people. For example where I live there are officials in certain areas that are not exposed to some of the best players and teams because they never work those teams during the season. Then when the post season comes, the officials that were working their games never see those teams or never get an opportunity to work in the post season at all. Now is that because of "racism." Maybe institutionally, but not personally or consciously there is an attempt to avoid diversity. Even in officiating where the sport is very diverse, many African-American officials are getting the short end of the stick. That being said, I have been exposed to places where there is a conscious effort to find and look for officials that are of all colors or genders. IT is not perfect, but it is a lot better than it used to be.

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

On a more general point, are we ever going to come to the place that Dr. King talked about?

If you think Dr. King was talking about not ever mentioning issues of race, you did not know much about Dr. King.

Peace

[jeffpea]

I would be willing to guess (I said "guess" not "wager" or "bet"...that's illegal - right Mr. Donaghy?)...that the author of this article was cheering for the team that lost.....

I am continually amazed at the degree to which emotional involvement (wanting one particular team to win) clouds the vision of and impairs the rational thinking by people watching a sporting event. If those who criticize the game officials are truly honest - I bet 90% of the time they would admit to wanting one team to win (and of course the "other" team won and thereby the impetus to criticize the officials...)

[tomegun]

I have circled the country and know many officials. I can say for sure that racism is part of this business and the best refs do not always get promoted. I know black, Asian and Hispanic officials who are held down. Does someone come out and say it is because of race? No. But some things do not need to be spoken. I can say with 100% certainty that the officials working the tournament today are not all going to be the best but they are there.

My last job in the military had me in charge of 600 young men and women. I was accused of being racist. The funny thing is that it came from whites then later from blacks. I guess I was an equal opportunity prick. I get
joy out of being fair regardless of race.

The officials we watch today will be confident and they will seem right the majority of the time. The only problem with that is they aren't automatically right because they are considered a big dog or wwhatever.

[dsqrddgd909]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Why do people want to compare these issues with groups that are not involved? Forgive me but I doubt in Indiana in the Midwest there are "gay" or Trans gender schools. That is not the issue and this is why people can never have these discussions seriously because someone wants to avoid the real issue.




Funny, I did not read the word "racism" in this article. He talked about diversity. It has been said in many circles that certain individuals do not know how to referee certain groups of people because they have been exposed to those groups of people. For example where I live there are officials in certain areas that are not exposed to some of the best players and teams because they never work those teams during the season. Then when the post season comes, the officials that were working their games never see those teams or never get an opportunity to work in the post season at all. Now is that because of "racism." Maybe institutionally, but not personally or consciously there is an attempt to avoid diversity. Even in officiating where the sport is very diverse, many African-American officials are getting the short end of the stick. That being said, I have been exposed to places where there is a conscious effort to find and look for officials that are of all colors or genders. IT is not perfect, but it is a lot better than it used to be.



If you think Dr. King was talking about not ever mentioning issues of race, you did not know much about Dr. King.

Peace

I apologize for the hyperbole. But what criteria do we use for diversity? Do teams of Asians/Hispanics/Muslims/Native Americans also deserve diverse referee crews? What about teams of nerds? (As a former Capt. of the Nerd patrol this one is close to the heart).

The original author used the word bias, instead of racism. Did you understand that his use of the word bias meant a subconscious reaction vs. the conscious act of racism? Can one ever become significantly less biased?

You challenged me on my reading of Dr. King. I admit to now being better informed. This link was a good summary I think. Misusing MLK Legacy and the Colorblind Theory

Is the US getting better or worse in terms of race relations? Are we making progress? Will race always divide us? What signs can one use to judge if we are improving or not?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I have circled the country and know many officials. I can say for sure that racism is part of this business and the best refs do not always get promoted. I know black, Asian and Hispanic officials who are held down.
.

I freely admit that I have NOT travelled the country like you have, Tom. Having said that, in your travels have you ever seen black, Asian, Hispanic, or female refs who have been promoted because of their race/gender/minority status???

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

I apologize for the hyperbole. But what criteria do we use for diversity? Do teams of Asians/Hispanics/Muslims/Native Americans also deserve diverse referee crews? What about teams of nerds? (As a former Capt. of the Nerd patrol this one is close to the heart).

Let us stop talking about diversity as if we are really talking about all those groups. The reality in most jurisdictions is basketball is likely played at higher levels amongst African-American and Caucasian players. And Muslim is a religion and I know people that are Muslim and no one knows it by looking at them.

I would think simply put officials on the game that looks like the participants. Now you do not have to do this in ever situation, but if an assignor or supervisor makes an effort, it is probably not hard to do. Obliviously this can be shaped by the area we are discussing, but you tell me that if they did not put more officials on these games being discussed, this article is not made?

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

The original author used the word bias, instead of racism. Did you understand that his use of the word bias meant a subconscious reaction vs. the conscious act of racism? Can one ever become significantly less biased?

If I recall, there are a lot of articles that question our biases or integrity as official. And it is a common back drop.

And in my last post season game, I had one team that is from an All Black area in the suburbs and another school that was in the city, but a private school that was still had mostly Black players. The private school is in the shadows of where the White Sox play and in a very non-white area.

The entire night there were comments about where we were from and what we were used to. The funny thing is I was the only Black official. Both my partners were Caucasian. I live in one of the less diverse areas in the suburbs. One of my partners lives in the city and works probably more city ball as a whole than I do. My other partner lives in a south suburb, but works in many places that it is clear there are not a lot of white players. And the vast majority of the crowd was Black. The entire night there were comments about where we were from or indirect comments about my race as it related to my partners. And it was assumed by only our race by fans that we were from places we obviously were not from or they did not realize where any of us worked games. And many of the comments from the suburban team, was that I lived in the city and had it out for the all-Black team. Or I was accused of being for the all-Black team and not for the private Catholic school. It became a joke during halftime and after the game. And this experience is more common than just in the post season.

Let me also say this. I was supposed to work at another playoff game in another area. Based on what I know the teams I would have had would have been between a public school and another private school, but the racial divide would have been different. There were some problems with some assignments in the place I ended up working and I was moved. The common assumption was that I was moved because I was African-American and they needed at least one Black official on the game I ended up working. Where as the place I came from this would not have been as much of a factor. Talking about these issues does not bother me and often is apart of my officiating life. And it is really the case in the sport of basketball.

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

You challenged me on my reading of Dr. King. I admit to now being better informed. This link was a good summary I think. Misusing MLK Legacy and the Colorblind Theory

Understand I consider myself kind of a MLK historian, because I was raised with King's speeches (I had a few books with just his speeches) and I had parents that grew up in that era and in the south of and civil rights movement. It kind of bothers me sometimes when people sum up MLK's life to one speech and takes the facts of that speech out of context.

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

Is the US getting better or worse in terms of race relations? Are we making progress? Will race always divide us? What signs can one use to judge if we are improving or not?

It is about the same if not worse, Because we cannot even have an honest discussion without people getting up in arms because there was even a brush of race being discussed. The man did not even mention racism, but you would think he committed a crime. And if he feels there is racism, so what. That is his opinion and many people feel there is racism in many aspects of society and sports have nothing to do with many of those cases. After all it is his opinion, just like people have opinions that someone who has never worked a game in certain areas cannot referee (very well). It does not mean the claim is true or valid. I just think the man was a little misguided and as usual he does not know the ins and outs of officiating. What else is new?

Peace

[Juulie Downs]

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

I apologize for the hyperbole. But what criteria do we use for diversity? Do teams of Asians/Hispanics/Muslims/Native Americans also deserve diverse referee crews? What about teams of nerds? (As a former Capt. of the Nerd patrol this one is close to the heart).

The original author used the word bias, instead of racism. Did you understand that his use of the word bias meant a subconscious reaction vs. the conscious act of racism? Can one ever become significantly less biased?

You challenged me on my reading of Dr. King. I admit to now being better informed. This link was a good summary I think. Misusing MLK Legacy and the Colorblind Theory

Is the US getting better or worse in terms of race relations? Are we making progress? Will race always divide us? What signs can one use to judge if we are improving or not?

You touch on one problem in this discussion which is to use the words "racism", "bias", "prejudice", and so on without distinction.

But beyond that, you are expanding this discussion in ways which would be good if we could get to them but on this board, they've been very difficult to really discuss. This just isn't the forum for it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs

You touch on one problem in this discussion which is to use the words "racism", "bias", "prejudice", and so on without distinction.

This is probably the best point of this discussion.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

I freely admit that I have NOT travelled the country like you have, Tom. Having said that, in your travels have you ever seen black, Asian, Hispanic, or female refs who have been promoted because of their race/gender/minority status???

And, have you (tomegun) surveyed for how many white refs that feel they don't get the level of games they think they deserve? (without connecting it to a reason....not because of race...just that they feel they don't get the assignments).

What it comes down to is that MOST refs of all demographic groups feel they don't get the games they deserve...that they are held down. Some chose to blame it on racism, some on gender, some on politics, some on the man in the moon.

Refs, as a group, and as part being able to do the job at all, must have a bit of an ego and must believe they're good. Most of the ones that don't have an strong ego either don't get into officiating or crash and drop out in 1-2 years.

Surveys have often shown that about 80% of the surveyed group think that thier abilities are above average....and simple math shows that at least 30% of the group is simply wrong (some of those that think they are average or below may be in the above average group...making the percentage that are wrong even higher)....and many of those that are above average may not be as far above average as they think.

The fact is that there are only so many preferred games to be worked and a lot more less than preferred games. The numbers just don't support a lot of people getting the top games....not matter who they are. When the refs don't get there, many look for excuses rather than reasons....and I see that attitude just as much in white males as any group.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

I freely admit that I have NOT travelled the country like you have, Tom. Having said that, in your travels have you ever seen black, Asian, Hispanic, or female refs who have been promoted because of their race/gender/minority status???

Of course there have been. I have heard straight from a NCAA-W supervisor's mouth that they were looking for "African-American females".

But then you have to look at why. The numbers hired will never approach those who have been held back because of those same demographics. That is just a fact of life. It's why I chuckle when I hear complaints about affirmative-action. The number of people specifically hired/promoted through affimative-action policies will never, ever approach the number people who have been held back because of institutional and personal discrimination.

[Mark Padgett]

What is most disheartening is that people still have preconceived notions about something they refer to as "race". The genome project proved scientifically there is no such thing as far as science is concerned. What humans share is commonality of genetic tagging. For example, genetically, being a white male I share more genetic traits with a black male than I do with a white female. This fact throws the concept of "race" right out the window. Eventually, (I hope) it will finally be accepted by everyone that human beings are just that - human beings - and should be judged as individuals based on their behavior.

Of course, I'm not holding my breath until that happens.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

Is the US getting better or worse in terms of race relations? Are we making progress? Will race always divide us? What signs can one use to judge if we are improving or not?

Sure, things are better. Perfect, no...but certainly better. Anyone that says otherwise full of crap or being dishonest...ask them if they'd really like to go back to what it was like 50, 100, or 200 years ago.

All I have to do is look around my workplace and see a large number of non-whites working very well paying professional jobs...and I've been on the hiring team that hired many of them....based strictly on ability. They're also being equally well represented in management....in dramatically stronger numbers than the greater area's demographics. None of that would not have been the case 40 or 50 years ago.

[refguy]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

I freely admit that I have NOT travelled the country like you have, Tom. Having said that, in your travels have you ever seen black, Asian, Hispanic, or female refs who have been promoted because of their race/gender/minority status???

I have. Similar to Jeff's observations about playoffs in his area, there are people who get games because of a perceived need to have racial or gender balance in a crew for certain games. I have actually been told directly, "We need 2 women and and one male on this game." I have seen it as well, especially regarding gender in advancement in girls and women's basketball. There simply aren't enough women coming into officiating every year to fill the perceived need to have women officiating women. And I say "perceived need" because I have yet to talk to one single coach that prefers women to men officiating their game; they don't like officials doing their games that are not ready or not good enough on ability, they just want the best. I have seen often where they get rated vs. each other for advancement and not vs. the entire pool of available talent.
Unscientifically, I would say that the percentage of female officials in any high school association is 10-20% at best. Therefore, there will be more qualified males than females available for promotion. And yet there are cases of women advancing more quickly, not because they are the best available, but because they stand out when compared with the available pool of female officials.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Sure, things are better. Perfect, no...but certainly better. Anyone that says otherwise full of crap or being dishonest...ask them if they'd really like to go back to what it was like 50, 100, or 200 years ago.

All I have to do is look around my workplace and see a large number of non-whites working very well paying professional jobs...and I've been on the hiring team that hired many of them....based strictly on ability. They're also being equally well represented in management....in dramatically stronger numbers than the greater area's demographics. None of that would not have been the case 40 or 50 years ago.

Camron - you're absolutely correct about things being "better" now. Especially here in the Portland area. Some day I'll tell you the tale of how, when I first moved to Portland in 1971, I almost lost my job because I promoted a black man. And....I was working for a major national company at the time. I also received a lot of nasty comments when I got remarried here in 1979 and my best man was black. I don't think either of those two things would happen today (I'm referring to the job problem and the nasty comments).

[Brad]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Unless I missed something in the article posted, there was not claim of "racism."

You missed something.