Article pointing finger at Racist Referees

[dsqrddgd909]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Why do people want to compare these issues with groups that are not involved? Forgive me but I doubt in Indiana in the Midwest there are "gay" or Trans gender schools. That is not the issue and this is why people can never have these discussions seriously because someone wants to avoid the real issue.




Funny, I did not read the word "racism" in this article. He talked about diversity. It has been said in many circles that certain individuals do not know how to referee certain groups of people because they have been exposed to those groups of people. For example where I live there are officials in certain areas that are not exposed to some of the best players and teams because they never work those teams during the season. Then when the post season comes, the officials that were working their games never see those teams or never get an opportunity to work in the post season at all. Now is that because of "racism." Maybe institutionally, but not personally or consciously there is an attempt to avoid diversity. Even in officiating where the sport is very diverse, many African-American officials are getting the short end of the stick. That being said, I have been exposed to places where there is a conscious effort to find and look for officials that are of all colors or genders. IT is not perfect, but it is a lot better than it used to be.



If you think Dr. King was talking about not ever mentioning issues of race, you did not know much about Dr. King.

Peace

I apologize for the hyperbole. But what criteria do we use for diversity? Do teams of Asians/Hispanics/Muslims/Native Americans also deserve diverse referee crews? What about teams of nerds? (As a former Capt. of the Nerd patrol this one is close to the heart).

The original author used the word bias, instead of racism. Did you understand that his use of the word bias meant a subconscious reaction vs. the conscious act of racism? Can one ever become significantly less biased?

You challenged me on my reading of Dr. King. I admit to now being better informed. This link was a good summary I think. Misusing MLK Legacy and the Colorblind Theory

Is the US getting better or worse in terms of race relations? Are we making progress? Will race always divide us? What signs can one use to judge if we are improving or not?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

I apologize for the hyperbole. But what criteria do we use for diversity? Do teams of Asians/Hispanics/Muslims/Native Americans also deserve diverse referee crews? What about teams of nerds? (As a former Capt. of the Nerd patrol this one is close to the heart).

Let us stop talking about diversity as if we are really talking about all those groups. The reality in most jurisdictions is basketball is likely played at higher levels amongst African-American and Caucasian players. And Muslim is a religion and I know people that are Muslim and no one knows it by looking at them.

I would think simply put officials on the game that looks like the participants. Now you do not have to do this in ever situation, but if an assignor or supervisor makes an effort, it is probably not hard to do. Obliviously this can be shaped by the area we are discussing, but you tell me that if they did not put more officials on these games being discussed, this article is not made?

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

The original author used the word bias, instead of racism. Did you understand that his use of the word bias meant a subconscious reaction vs. the conscious act of racism? Can one ever become significantly less biased?

If I recall, there are a lot of articles that question our biases or integrity as official. And it is a common back drop.

And in my last post season game, I had one team that is from an All Black area in the suburbs and another school that was in the city, but a private school that was still had mostly Black players. The private school is in the shadows of where the White Sox play and in a very non-white area.

The entire night there were comments about where we were from and what we were used to. The funny thing is I was the only Black official. Both my partners were Caucasian. I live in one of the less diverse areas in the suburbs. One of my partners lives in the city and works probably more city ball as a whole than I do. My other partner lives in a south suburb, but works in many places that it is clear there are not a lot of white players. And the vast majority of the crowd was Black. The entire night there were comments about where we were from or indirect comments about my race as it related to my partners. And it was assumed by only our race by fans that we were from places we obviously were not from or they did not realize where any of us worked games. And many of the comments from the suburban team, was that I lived in the city and had it out for the all-Black team. Or I was accused of being for the all-Black team and not for the private Catholic school. It became a joke during halftime and after the game. And this experience is more common than just in the post season.

Let me also say this. I was supposed to work at another playoff game in another area. Based on what I know the teams I would have had would have been between a public school and another private school, but the racial divide would have been different. There were some problems with some assignments in the place I ended up working and I was moved. The common assumption was that I was moved because I was African-American and they needed at least one Black official on the game I ended up working. Where as the place I came from this would not have been as much of a factor. Talking about these issues does not bother me and often is apart of my officiating life. And it is really the case in the sport of basketball.

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

You challenged me on my reading of Dr. King. I admit to now being better informed. This link was a good summary I think. Misusing MLK Legacy and the Colorblind Theory

Understand I consider myself kind of a MLK historian, because I was raised with King's speeches (I had a few books with just his speeches) and I had parents that grew up in that era and in the south of and civil rights movement. It kind of bothers me sometimes when people sum up MLK's life to one speech and takes the facts of that speech out of context.

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

Is the US getting better or worse in terms of race relations? Are we making progress? Will race always divide us? What signs can one use to judge if we are improving or not?

It is about the same if not worse, Because we cannot even have an honest discussion without people getting up in arms because there was even a brush of race being discussed. The man did not even mention racism, but you would think he committed a crime. And if he feels there is racism, so what. That is his opinion and many people feel there is racism in many aspects of society and sports have nothing to do with many of those cases. After all it is his opinion, just like people have opinions that someone who has never worked a game in certain areas cannot referee (very well). It does not mean the claim is true or valid. I just think the man was a little misguided and as usual he does not know the ins and outs of officiating. What else is new?

Peace

[Juulie Downs]

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

I apologize for the hyperbole. But what criteria do we use for diversity? Do teams of Asians/Hispanics/Muslims/Native Americans also deserve diverse referee crews? What about teams of nerds? (As a former Capt. of the Nerd patrol this one is close to the heart).

The original author used the word bias, instead of racism. Did you understand that his use of the word bias meant a subconscious reaction vs. the conscious act of racism? Can one ever become significantly less biased?

You challenged me on my reading of Dr. King. I admit to now being better informed. This link was a good summary I think. Misusing MLK Legacy and the Colorblind Theory

Is the US getting better or worse in terms of race relations? Are we making progress? Will race always divide us? What signs can one use to judge if we are improving or not?

You touch on one problem in this discussion which is to use the words "racism", "bias", "prejudice", and so on without distinction.

But beyond that, you are expanding this discussion in ways which would be good if we could get to them but on this board, they've been very difficult to really discuss. This just isn't the forum for it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs

You touch on one problem in this discussion which is to use the words "racism", "bias", "prejudice", and so on without distinction.

This is probably the best point of this discussion.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

Is the US getting better or worse in terms of race relations? Are we making progress? Will race always divide us? What signs can one use to judge if we are improving or not?

Sure, things are better. Perfect, no...but certainly better. Anyone that says otherwise full of crap or being dishonest...ask them if they'd really like to go back to what it was like 50, 100, or 200 years ago.

All I have to do is look around my workplace and see a large number of non-whites working very well paying professional jobs...and I've been on the hiring team that hired many of them....based strictly on ability. They're also being equally well represented in management....in dramatically stronger numbers than the greater area's demographics. None of that would not have been the case 40 or 50 years ago.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Sure, things are better. Perfect, no...but certainly better. Anyone that says otherwise full of crap or being dishonest...ask them if they'd really like to go back to what it was like 50, 100, or 200 years ago.

All I have to do is look around my workplace and see a large number of non-whites working very well paying professional jobs...and I've been on the hiring team that hired many of them....based strictly on ability. They're also being equally well represented in management....in dramatically stronger numbers than the greater area's demographics. None of that would not have been the case 40 or 50 years ago.

Camron - you're absolutely correct about things being "better" now. Especially here in the Portland area. Some day I'll tell you the tale of how, when I first moved to Portland in 1971, I almost lost my job because I promoted a black man. And....I was working for a major national company at the time. I also received a lot of nasty comments when I got remarried here in 1979 and my best man was black. I don't think either of those two things would happen today (I'm referring to the job problem and the nasty comments).

[Amesman]

When it comes to presentation, perception CAN be everything. Not that it should be, or taint calls, outcomes, etc. But it's the classic glass half-full, glass half-empty scenario. How do you see it?

When I played, I used to get ticked off because there was no question officials were cutting shorter players slack because I was taller and just "should have done better because of my height." Ah, the bias.

One thing that should be pointed out, however, and it seems it was blurred at least in early postings. The OP article writer was NOT a sports reporter, or even a journalist working for the newspaper.

He was a guest opinion writer. And what frames his opinions? He is leader of the Urban League so, no, he does not come to the table with unbiased views. (None of us do.)

(From his organization's Web site: "Today the Fort Wayne Urban League continues to fulfill its mission through the delivery of programs that address contemporary needs, as we pursue our vision “to be the premier catalyst for positive change in the quality of life for African Americans and others in the greater Fort Wayne Community.” "

That doesn't validate or invalidate his views. But it does frame them.

America by and large still does a lousy job with race relations. From both (all) sides of the equation. But we are trying, which is more than can be said for some pretty homogenous lands out there.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Amesman

When it comes to presentation, perception CAN be everything. Not that it should be, or taint calls, outcomes, etc. But it's the classic glass half-full, glass half-empty scenario. How do you see it?

When I played, I used to get ticked off because there was no question officials were cutting shorter players slack because I was taller and just "should have done better because of my height." Ah, the bias.

One thing that should be pointed out, however, and it seems it was blurred at least in early postings. The OP article writer was NOT a sports reporter, or even a journalist working for the newspaper.

He was a guest opinion writer. And what frames his opinions? He is leader of the Urban League so, no, he does not come to the table with unbiased views. (None of us do.)

(From his organization's Web site: "Today the Fort Wayne Urban League continues to fulfill its mission through the delivery of programs that address contemporary needs, as we pursue our vision “to be the premier catalyst for positive change in the quality of life for African Americans and others in the greater Fort Wayne Community.” "

That doesn't validate or invalidate his views. But it does frame them.

America by and large still does a lousy job with race relations. From both (all) sides of the equation. But we are trying, which is more than can be said for some pretty homogenous lands out there.

The article was written by a fanboy. Why can't any of you see this?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Sure, things are better. Perfect, no...but certainly better. Anyone that says otherwise full of crap or being dishonest...ask them if they'd really like to go back to what it was like 50, 100, or 200 years ago.

All I have to do is look around my workplace and see a large number of non-whites working very well paying professional jobs...and I've been on the hiring team that hired many of them....based strictly on ability. They're also being equally well represented in management....in dramatically stronger numbers than the greater area's demographics. None of that would not have been the case 40 or 50 years ago.

My mom was the first African-American female to be a chairperson at the University when she came to the place she ended up working for 30 years. I think there are exactly zero chairpersons that are African-American woman since she left that post over 20 years ago. And education is a place where many African-Americans attempt to go into. And I just joined a church in the middle of suburbs and it is all-Black (I could have counted two when I attended a couple of Sundays ago). And I have not talked about schools and places people live. If better means that you do not fear for your life if I walked into an area or if I whistled at a woman of another race. But to say that things are so much better is not true. Also we do not have laws that prohibit marriage or dating or even going to schools. But the social differences are often still there.

Honestly I do not give a crap about who is hired in a sport. This area is just a very small area that means anything in the bigger scheme of things. But I would expect if the players, coaches and fans are coming from all kinds of places, I think it is not too much to ask that the officials reflect those things. All the good officials do not just come from one place.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

But I would expect if the players, coaches and fans are coming from all kinds of places, I think it is not too much to ask that the officials reflect those things. All the good officials do not just come from one place.

Peace

Are you really suggesting that the officials match the demographics of the players? Perhaps by selecting officials simply by the color of their skin....just to make the number match? If so, fine, but in the order of consistency and equality, do you also suggest that the the players match the demographics of the area the team represents? That teams can only have players in the same percentages as their school or region?

The more appropriate question to ask is whether the number officials in any given area roughly reflect the area as a whole? Or perhaps, to a lessor degree, the numbers of players from 10-40 years ago since many refs came form the pool of players at that time.

[Mark Padgett]

When I officiate, I do see two different colors - home jersey color and visiting jersey color. Period.

To be scientifically accurate, however, I guess I see only one since home jerseys are white, and white is defined as "absence of color".

Anyway, I would hope to think that all officials are "color blind", except when it comes to reporting which team the foul was on, of course.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

When I officiate, I do see two different colors - home jersey color and visiting jersey color. Period.

To be scientifically accurate, however, I guess I see only one since home jerseys are white, and white is defined as "absence of color".

Anyway, I would hope to think that all officials are "color blind", except when it comes to reporting which team the foul was on, of course.

The numerals on the white jerseys have pigment, though.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Are you really suggesting that the officials match the demographics of the players?

On many levels my answer is yes. Why is officiating different than other aspects of life? My first job out of college I was hired to work in a community that mirrored the people I would be working with on a daily basis. I am sure that was done too for the reasons this article was written.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Perhaps by selecting officials simply by the color of their skin....just to make the number match? If so, fine, but in the order of consistency and equality, do you also suggest that the the players match the demographics of the area the team represents? That teams can only have players in the same percentages as their school or region?

What I am actually considering is you consider everything. Where people live, experience, conferences the officials are from, physical fitness, big game history or any number of things we talk about here as "qualifications." I do not see the harm in looking for diverse crews to work certain games if the result is to give an appearance of fairness.

Cameron, I have worked several games with an all-Black crew. It is amazing in this day and age the amount of comments good and bad that were made about it. When I watch a game on TV or in the playoffs and I see a crew that looks nothing like the players on the floor, no one bats and eye. Even the officials look little like the participants of the fans in the stands. I do not understand why that same consideration cannot be extended to others. To me that is a fair to consider races as one of many factors. I did not say exclude anyone or to never have situations where officials do not reflect who is on the court. I just think there are those in decision making positions that can look for other officials that look more like the participants if possible.

I will say in my state there has been an effort to do just that. I am not saying that this is perfect or that you could not find more, but they are certainly not excluding people from the process. And yes, they consider geography, color, experience, conferences you work, and ratings to make those decisions. This is also not just anecdotal comment, there is some scientific evidence that shows this and the words from the people making those decisions have also made references to those things. Their efforts have diminished the complaints that would take place to a minimum. A few years ago the diversity of the officials was a big deal in a post season game where a coach put it front and center. You do not hear that constant complaining anymore. Out of the 12 officials that worked the State Finals in my state for the Boy's Class 3A and 4A Tournament (big schools), 3 were Black. Out of the 8 teams, 5 were entirely Black teams from the Head coaches, all the players and the water boy. And the top players on the other teams were mostly Black except one school. And that school beat on of the teams out of that five by a last second shot by a player that was Black. Are you telling me that if our state wanted to have more than 3 African-American officials would have been unacceptable considering what the tournament looked like?

At the high school level I feel strongly that this is about education. This is not even the college level. I feel like the participants should have the right to see people in leadership roles that look like them. To me it sends a bad message if you say to the players, you can play the game, but when it comes to running the game you cannot participate. And that is why for younger people what happen in this past election was so emotional for some many.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

On many levels my answer is yes. Why is officiating different than other aspects of life? My first job out of college I was hired to work in a community that mirrored the people I would be working with on a daily basis. I am sure that was done too for the reasons this article was written.



What I am actually considering is you consider everything. Where people live, experience, conferences the officials are from, physical fitness, big game history or any number of things we talk about here as "qualifications." I do not see the harm in looking for diverse crews to work certain games if the result is to give an appearance of fairness.

Cameron, I have worked several games with an all-Black crew. It is amazing in this day and age the amount of comments good and bad that were made about it. When I watch a game on TV or in the playoffs and I see a crew that looks nothing like the players on the floor, no one bats and eye. Even the officials look little like the participants of the fans in the stands. I do not understand why that same consideration cannot be extended to others. To me that is a fair to consider races as one of many factors. I did not say exclude anyone or to never have situations where officials do not reflect who is on the court. I just think there are those in decision making positions that can look for other officials that look more like the participants if possible.

I will say in my state there has been an effort to do just that. I am not saying that this is perfect or that you could not find more, but they are certainly not excluding people from the process. And yes, they consider geography, color, experience, conferences you work, and ratings to make those decisions. This is also not just anecdotal comment, there is some scientific evidence that shows this and the words from the people making those decisions have also made references to those things. Their efforts have diminished the complaints that would take place to a minimum. A few years ago the diversity of the officials was a big deal in a post season game where a coach put it front and center. You do not hear that constant complaining anymore. Out of the 12 officials that worked the State Finals in my state for the Boy's Class 3A and 4A Tournament (big schools), 3 were Black. Out of the 8 teams, 5 were entirely Black teams from the Head coaches, all the players and the water boy. And the top players on the other teams were mostly Black except one school. And that school beat on of the teams out of that five by a last second shot by a player that was Black. Are you telling me that if our state wanted to have more than 3 African-American officials would have been unacceptable considering what the tournament looked like?

At the high school level I feel strongly that this is about education. This is not even the college level. I feel like the participants should have the right to see people in leadership roles that look like them. To me it sends a bad message if you say to the players, you can play the game, but when it comes to running the game you cannot participate. And that is why for younger people what happen in this past election was so emotional for some many.

Peace

So you'd have no problem with picking only white officials then, to the exclusion of black officials, if the players on both teams are white?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

So you'd have no problem with picking only white officials then, to the exclusion of black officials, if the players on both teams are white?

That already happens. Why would I have a problem with this situation?

For the record that very thing happened to me personally in a conference I no longer work. Every game my crew had with this particular conference, we almost always worked this one school that had a Black coach, players and fans. It ended up causing a conflict because we could not get away from this particular school. When we were assigned two all white school and communities (well they had one African-American player between them) we were shocked. I soon stopped wanted to work that conference.

Peace