Travel

[kzreffin]

Last night had a girl pick up her dribble and make a pass. The girl she was passing to looked away and cut just before the pass. The passer then retreived her own pass but did not dribble again - she simply went and picked it up. I thought this was similar to a fumble and she was allowed to pick up her pass. What is the ruling and where is this covered in rule book or case book?

[JugglingReferee]

Travel or not?

[kzreffin]

One guy said no travel then the post was removed. I am looking for where in the rulebook and casebook I can find this.

[SamIAm]

Originally Posted by kzreffin

One guy said no travel then the post was removed. I am looking for where in the rulebook and casebook I can find this.

1st) It is a violation.
2nd) I am pretty sure it is a illegal dribble violation. More specifically, it is an illegal start of a dribble.

From the book of Jurassic -

a)Maybe. The pass by A1 was the start of a second dribble. If he runs and catches the pass attempt before it hits the floor, it's a travel. If he runs and catches the ball after it hit the floor, it's an illegal second dribble.

[kzreffin]

Thanks but I am not sure about this. What is the difference between this and a fumble? What if in the attempted pass the player tries to hold back and the balls kind of slips out and the player retreives it. It all seems similar to a fumble to me.

[SamIAm]

Originally Posted by kzreffin

Thanks but I am not sure about this. What is the difference between this and a fumble? What if in the attempted pass the player tries to hold back and the balls kind of slips out and the player retreives it. It all seems similar to a fumble to me.

Your OP did not say it might have been a fumble. It said it was a pass. Now you have asked a second question. The OP, plus it might be a fumble.

Concerning the second question. If is was a fumble, A1 can go get her fumble, but not dribble.

The difference between a fumble and an errant pass is your judgement.
My take on the difference is, "a fumble is accidental release of the ball", a pass is "intentional release of the ball". (These descriptions are intended to only apply to the question of was it a pass or was it a fumble.)

Someone in the past has posted a rule of thumb that goes something like this - You can fumble, dribble, fumble but you cannot dribble, fumble, dribble.

[kzreffin]

Anyone got a rule quote or casebook situation to back it up?

[mick]

Originally Posted by kzreffin

Thanks but I am not sure about this. What is the difference between this and a fumble? What if in the attempted pass the player tries to hold back and the balls kind of slips out and the player retreives it. It all seems similar to a fumble to me.

The difference is your judgement in determining fumble or control.

I agree with Sam (and Jurassic Ref in abstentia).
Your player ended a dribble and threw the ball to the floor [started a second dribble] and grabbed the ball [ended a second dribble]. Intent to pass has nothing to do with this action. Just consider the act on its own merit.

For guidance, consider Case 4.15.4 Situation C (a) and (b), where throwing a ball against player's own backboard or against an official is compared to throwing the ball against the floor.

Yes, your player may recover a fumble, but from what you described your player got away with an illegal dribble.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by kzreffin

Thanks but I am not sure about this. What is the difference between this and a fumble?

Your judgement as an official.

[jc147119]

Here is an case play in support of your OP:

A.R. 84. A1, after:
(1) Receiving a pass; or
(2) Ending his/her dribble, passes the ball to A2. Before receiving
the pass, A2 leaves the area on a cut to the basket. A1 goes
to the area vacated by A2 and recovers the ball.
RULING: In order for a pass to occur, the thrown ball must be
touched by another player. This did not occur in (1) or (2).
(1) A1’s attempted pass was the start of his/her dribble. When he/
she recovered the ball and started another dribble, he/she would have
committed a violation. (Had A1, after releasing the pass, which was
the start of the dribble, not recovered the ball but rather continued to
dribble, it would not have been a violation.)
(2) A1 had previously ended a dribble before his/her attempted pass
to A2. A1’s release of the ball on his/her attempted pass to A2 was the
start of a second dribble. When A1 recovered the ball he/she ended
the dribble. A1 committed a violation after he/she touched the ball.
(Rule 4-21.2 and 9-7.1.c)

Hope this helps.