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Old Tue Mar 03, 2009, 04:38pm
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5 Second Count

GJH game last nite - girl dribbling while being closely defended I start count - girl continues to dribble across the court close to the division line. I call the violation.

Of course the coach says how can that be - she was attacking the basket. My response was that the count stops when the torso is past the defender or the dribbler backs up to avoid the 6 foot rule - was it the correct call?
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Old Tue Mar 03, 2009, 04:51pm
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Originally Posted by Refsmitty View Post
GJH game last nite - girl dribbling while being closely defended I start count - girl continues to dribble across the court close to the division line. I call the violation.

Of course the coach says how can that be - she was attacking the basket. My response was that the count stops when the torso is past the defender or the dribbler backs up to avoid the 6 foot rule - was it the correct call?
Yes, I had one in a JVB game. Player started from about 25 feet from the hoop, drove to the right corner (I was T on that side), then started backing out from the endline. I actually got to 6 before calling it.

Coach, yelling across the court as I transition to new lead, "What is separation to you?"
Me, "Six feet."
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Old Tue Mar 03, 2009, 04:53pm
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Coach, yelling across the court as I transition to new lead, "What is separation to you?"
Me, "More than six feet."
Fixed it for ya.
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Old Tue Mar 03, 2009, 05:15pm
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Fixed it for ya.
Too many words.
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Old Tue Mar 03, 2009, 05:20pm
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Originally Posted by Refsmitty View Post
GJH game last nite - girl dribbling while being closely defended I start count - girl continues to dribble across the court close to the division line. I call the violation.

Of course the coach says how can that be - she was attacking the basket. My response was that the count stops when the torso is past the defender or the dribbler backs up to avoid the 6 foot rule - was it the correct call?

SECTION 10 CLOSELY GUARDED
A closely guarded situation occurs when a player in control of the ball in his/her
team’s frontcourt, is continuously guarded by any opponent who is within six feet
of the player who is holding or dribbling the ball. The distance shall be measured
from the forward foot/feet of the defender to the forward foot/feet of the ball
handler. A closely guarded count shall be terminated when the offensive player in
control of the ball gets his/her head and shoulders past the defensive player.

Just semantics, but remember the shampoo.
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Old Tue Mar 03, 2009, 05:27pm
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Yes, I had one in a JVB game. Player started from about 25 feet from the hoop, drove to the right corner (I was T on that side), then started backing out from the endline. I actually got to 6 before calling it.

Coach, yelling across the court as I transition to new lead, "What is separation to you?"
Me, "Six feet."
If the defender remains within 6 feet, but the dribbler is moving away from the defender [perhaps toward the backcourt, away from the defender], does that constitute having the shoulders and torso *past the defender* ?
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Old Tue Mar 03, 2009, 05:50pm
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Interesting question, Mick. I'd say no, but I'm willing to be convinced.

Follow up question: Would it matter if the dribbler turned to head towards the backcourt instead of backing up in that direction?
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Old Tue Mar 03, 2009, 05:56pm
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Originally Posted by mick View Post
If the defender remains within 6 feet, but the dribbler is moving away from the defender [perhaps toward the backcourt, away from the defender], does that constitute having the shoulders and torso *past the defender* ?
I was taught that "past the defender" is relative to the basket, so the ball handler would have to be moving toward the basket in order to meet this test and suspend the count.
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Old Tue Mar 03, 2009, 05:57pm
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Originally Posted by mbyron View Post
I was taught that "past the defender" is relative to the basket, so the ball handler would have to be moving toward the basket in order to meet this test and suspend terminate the count.
I fixed it for you. You would never suspend a 5 second count.

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Old Tue Mar 03, 2009, 06:24pm
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I fixed it for you. You would never suspend a 5 second count.

Sure you would. "Termination" is simply permanent suspension.
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Old Tue Mar 03, 2009, 07:19pm
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Originally Posted by fullor30 View Post
A closely guarded count shall be terminated when the offensive player in
control of the ball gets his/her head and shoulders past the defensive player.

Just semantics, but remember the shampoo.
The shampoo rule! I love it!
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Old Tue Mar 03, 2009, 09:01pm
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Formulated with a fresh, clean scent ...

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The shampoo rule!
Classic.
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Old Tue Mar 03, 2009, 09:13pm
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Yeah, That's Right, I'm Old, What You Gonna Do About It ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Refsmitty View Post
GJH game last night, girl dribbling while being closely defended, I start count, girl continues to dribble across the court close to the division line. I call the violation. Of course the coach says how can that be, she was attacking the basket. My response was that the count stops when the torso is past the defender or the dribbler backs up to avoid the 6 foot rule, was it the correct call?
"What we've got here is a failure to communicate." (Cool Hand Luke)

You were 100% correct in your call, but you failed to listen to the coaches comment, which is why your reply fell on deaf ears. His complaint was that "she was attacking the basket". Many years ago, probably when this coach was playing, if a dribbler, while being closely guarded, dribbled past the twenty-eight foot hash mark, which still appears on some older courts, she got a new five second count started. Back then you cold hold for four seconds, dribble for four seconds, dribble past the hash mark, and get to dribble for four more seconds, and then hold for four seconds, with no violation, a total of 16 seconds. The maximum limit today is twelve seconds. Old Coach, old rule, maybe a young official, who never knew any other closely guarded rule.
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Old Wed Mar 04, 2009, 12:13pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
"What we've got here is a failure to communicate." (Cool Hand Luke)

You were 100% correct in your call, but you failed to listen to the coaches comment, which is why your reply fell on deaf ears. His complaint was that "she was attacking the basket". Many years ago, probably when this coach was playing, if a dribbler, while being closely guarded, dribbled past the twenty-eight foot hash mark, which still appears on some older courts, she got a new five second count started. Back then you cold hold for four seconds, dribble for four seconds, dribble past the hash mark, and get to dribble for four more seconds, and then hold for four seconds, with no violation, a total of 16 seconds. The maximum limit today is twelve seconds. Old Coach, old rule, maybe a young official, who never knew any other closely guarded rule.
Haha love it -- and probably exactly what happened!
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Old Wed Mar 04, 2009, 08:54pm
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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
The maximum limit today is twelve seconds.

Don't mean to argue semantics, but that's what we do here (a lot of the time).

Hold for 4.9999..., dribble for 4.9999...., hold for 4.9999... = 14.9997 seconds which is almost 3 seconds more than the 12 seconds that you suggest is the maximum.

Last edited by biz; Wed Mar 04, 2009 at 08:56pm.
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