FIBA Substitutions

[Cleefy]

Hi All,

Just after some clarification to a situation that occurred in our local competition on Friday night.

Team A has no substitutes sitting on their bench, and is playing on the court with 5 players. Coach requests that we sub one of their players off onto the bench so that he can talk to him.

I believe this is not allowed, as it places the opposing team at a disadvantage (by resting on of their players)... however my partner makes the decision that this can happen.

I am aware that a substitution can only be requested by a player, so the coaches request should have been denied anyway, but my partner overlooked this...

Can anyone clarify whether this sub is allowed or not, overlooking Article 19.3.1?

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by Cleefy

Hi All,

Just after some clarification to a situation that occurred in our local competition on Friday night.

Team A has no substitutes sitting on their bench, and is playing on the court with 5 players. Coach requests that we sub one of their players off onto the bench so that he can talk to him.

I believe this is not allowed, as it places the opposing team at a disadvantage (by resting on of their players)... however my partner makes the decision that this can happen.

I am aware that a substitution can only be requested by a player, so the coaches request should have been denied anyway, but my partner overlooked this...

Can anyone clarify whether this sub is allowed or not, overlooking Article 19.3.1?

It's not a substitution. But there's nothing which prevents a team from being with less than five players on the court (after the beginning of the game).

A player might need a rest, why should we not allow it? The other team is clearly not at disadvantage, because they'll be playing five against four. This player can come back into the court only when the ball is dead and the clock is not running.

Ciao

[Cleefy]

Thanks for that - clearly I'd been educated incorrectly at some stage.

How does a player substitute if they aren't on the bench already though?

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by Cleefy

Thanks for that - clearly I'd been educated incorrectly at some stage.

How does a player substitute if they aren't on the bench already though?

At a dead ball and stopped clock a player can ask the official to go to the bench because of an injury: the concept of injury is quite liberal.

Ciao

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Cleefy

Team A has no substitutes sitting on their bench, and is playing on the court with 5 players. Coach requests that we sub one of their players off onto the bench so that he can talk to him.

I know that his is a FIBA question, but for most of us that deal with NFHS rules, would this be allowed? I don't think so, but I'm open to other opinions.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I know that his is a FIBA question, but for most of us that deal with NFHS rules, would this be allowed? I don't think so, but I'm open to other opinions.

No. If you have 5, you must play 5.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

No. If you have 5, you must play 5.

Kind of like, "Smoke em if you have em".

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

From the FIBA Rules Book:

4.2 Rule
4.2.1 Each team shall consist of:
• No more than twelve (12) team members entitled to play, including a captain.
• A coach and, if a team wishes, an assistant coach.
• A maximum of five (5) team followers who may sit on the team bench and have special responsibilities, e.g. manager, doctor, physiotherapist, statistician, interpreter, etc.
4.2.2 Five (5) players from each team shall be on the playing court during playing time and may be substituted.
4.2.3 A substitute becomes a player and a player becomes a substitute when:
• The official beckons the substitute to enter the playing court.
• During a time-out or an interval of play, a substitute requests the substitution to the scorer.

It is my reading of FIBA R4.2.2 that the Team in the OP must play with five players if it has five eligible players.

MTD, Sr.

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

From the FIBA Rules Book:

4.2 Rule
4.2.1 Each team shall consist of:
• No more than twelve (12) team members entitled to play, including a captain.
• A coach and, if a team wishes, an assistant coach.
• A maximum of five (5) team followers who may sit on the team bench and have special responsibilities, e.g. manager, doctor, physiotherapist, statistician, interpreter, etc.
4.2.2 Five (5) players from each team shall be on the playing court during playing time and may be substituted.
4.2.3 A substitute becomes a player and a player becomes a substitute when:
• The official beckons the substitute to enter the playing court.
• During a time-out or an interval of play, a substitute requests the substitution to the scorer.

It is my reading of FIBA R4.2.2 that the Team in the OP must play with five players if it has five eligible players.

MTD, Sr.

21.1 Rule
A team shall lose a game by default if, during the game, the team has fewer than two (2) players on the playing court ready to play.

Therefore it's allowed to have fewer that five players on the court. We are not to judge why a coach wants a player to sit on the bench: if the coach says that the player cannot play, that's enough. If there is no substitute, they will play four against five. Where's the problem? Do you know whether that player suffers from asthma? On the contrary, I see problems in forcing a player to remain on the court. The official in this case is assuming the responsibility of the decision.

Ciao

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

From the FIBA Rules Book.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.: I always knew that you were somewhat of an expert in NFHS rules, and in NCAA rules, but I didn't know that you were also a FIBA guy. How do you keep each rule set straight? And the mechanics? We have one official on our local board who also officiates all three rule sets, and in fact, officiated at the Olympic Games in Beijing this past summer. How do you guys do this? Now, where is my remote control?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.: I always knew that you were somewhat of an expert in NFHS rules, and in NCAA rules, but I didn't know that you were also a FIBA guy. How do you keep each rule set straight? And the mechanics? We have one official on our local board who also officiates all three rule sets, and in fact, officiated at the Olympic Games in Beijing this past summer. How do you guys do this? Now, where is my remote control?

They're Type A personalities.

[Adam]

Sorry, eg-italy, but I read it Mark's way. If they have 5, they shall play five. "Shall" is the same as "must" with the rules.

Rule 21.1 would mean that if they are down to one eligible player, they would forfeit.

If they want to rest a player, nothing prevents that player from sitting down on the court for a short time.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If they want to rest a player, nothing prevents that player from sitting down on the court for a short time.

Same thing applies to officials. That's what I do, when I need to catch my breath. My partner can handle things by himself, or herself, for a few moments.

[Cleefy]

So the general consensus is that the substitute shall be denied under FIBA 4.2.2?

Also, to clear it up, the player wasn't injured - the coach requested that we substitute him because he missed an easy fast break..

Edit: Then again, its not really a substitution, because no one is replacing the player on the court - in this example, the player on the court is simply being 'scratched' onto the bench.

So if we look at 19.1, "A substitution is an interruption of the game requested by the substitute to become a player."

It basically says that a SUBSTITUTE must become a PLAYER, and there is nothing stating a vice versa situation...

does this change anything?

Cleefy

[Adam]

"Coach, if he's not injured, he has to play."
Let the coach make his decision.