The dog barks.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Interesting they want you to wave off the basket after it's been scored.

There was no goal scored. The ball became dead when the player started acting like a dog.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by LDUB

There was no goal scored. The ball became dead when the player started acting like a dog.

More explicitly: there was no goal because the ball became dead before the try.

But Snaq is still correct: we wave off the goal here just as we do for any foul or violation by the offense just prior to a try, and for the same reason.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by LDUB

There was no goal scored. The ball became dead when the player started acting like a dog.

I'm not so sure about this. If a team plays 6 and scores and we don't notice until after the score, the basket counts. Based on the interp above, that's not how it works for the barking dog play.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm not so sure about this. If a team plays 6 and scores and we don't notice until after the score, the basket counts. Based on the interp above, that's not how it works for the barking dog play.

Good point. Does the barking dog (player), or the whistle for the barking dog (player), cause the ball to become dead?

NFHS 6-7: The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:
ART. 5 An official’s whistle is blown.
ART. 7 A foul, other than player- or team-control, occurs.

Snaqwells: Can you keep posting thought provoking posts like this for the next nine months? Please answer yes, and please keep them coming.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Good point. Does the barking dog (player), or the whistle for the barking dog (player), cause the ball to become dead?

NFHS 6-7: The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:
ART. 5 An official’s whistle is blown.
ART. 7 A foul, other than player- or team-control, occurs.

If one rules that the barking dog action is unsporting conduct, this would be the foul. When the foul, such as it is, takes place, the ball is dead, not when the whistle blows.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Good point. Does the barking dog (player), or the whistle for the barking dog (player), cause the ball to become dead?

This is the exact same as any other foul. I don't know why you would think the whistle causes the ball to become dead. This is simple stuff; you even quoted the relevant rule...acting like a dog is a foul which is not a PC or TC foul.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Does the barking dog (player), or the whistle for the barking dog (player), cause the ball to become dead?
NFHS 6-7: The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:
ART. 5 An official’s whistle is blown.
ART. 7 A foul, other than player- or team-control, occurs.

Originally Posted by LDUB

This is the exact same as any other foul. I don't know why you would think the whistle causes the ball to become dead. This is simple stuff; you even quoted the relevant rule...acting like a dog is a foul which is not a PC or TC foul.

I never thought the whistle caused the ball to become dead in this situation. Note the question mark at the end of my interrogative statement. It wasn't a declarative statement ending in a period. Further, it was a rhetorical question, implying that the answer was too obvious to require a reply. Also, sometimes the whistle does cause the ball to become dead, i.e., when there is an inadvertent whistle.

[bbcoach7]

It was pretty pathetic. I showed it to the kids in practice once and being 12-13 years old, they thought it was the greatest thing they'd ever seen on a basketball court. Then later in a game that wasn't even close, they begged and begged to run it, "just one time pleeeeeeeeeeze." I relented.

So they go in after a T.O. to run this play. As the official gives the ball to the inbounder, my player in front of the inbounder drops and starts barking. Nobody even seemed to notice! She had no effect what so ever! I don't know if they just thought she fell down to her hands & knees, or what, but it didn't work.

Originally Posted by bbcoach7

It was pretty pathetic. I showed it to the kids in practice once and being 12-13 years old, they thought it was the greatest thing they'd ever seen on a basketball court. Then later in a game that wasn't even close, they begged and begged to run it, "just one time pleeeeeeeeeeze." I relented.

So they go in after a T.O. to run this play. As the official gives the ball to the inbounder, my player in front of the inbounder drops and starts barking. Nobody even seemed to notice! She had no effect what so ever! I don't know if they just thought she fell down to her hands & knees, or what, but it didn't work.

Or maybe they thought she was having a seizure and thought it was an ample opportunity to make a steal and take off on the break!

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm not so sure about this. If a team plays 6 and scores and we don't notice until after the score, the basket counts. Based on the interp above, that's not how it works for the barking dog play.

It is the exact same rule. For 6 players the foul occurs when it is discovered an official; the ball becomes dead at that point (there are exceptions regarding tries and tries in flight). On the barking dog play the ball becomes dead when the player starts acting like a dog. When the case play says that the official must wave off the basket that means he must give the no score signal as he may be sounding the whistle very near to the time that the try is starting or while the try is in flight. The no score signal makes it clear that the goal didn't count.

In both situations the ball becomes dead when the foul occurs.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by LDUB

It is the exact same rule. For 6 players the foul occurs when it is discovered an official; the ball becomes dead at that point (there are exceptions regarding tries and tries in flight). On the barking dog play the ball becomes dead when the player starts acting like a dog. When the case play says that the official must wave off the basket that means he must give the no score signal as he may be sounding the whistle very near to the time that the try is starting or while the try is in flight. The no score signal makes it clear that the goal didn't count.

In both situations the ball becomes dead when the foul occurs.

I can go with this, it makes sense. The case play says the player scored; to me this is clear that the official's whistle came after the score. That said, it still makes sense, because if the officials catch the 6th player before the ball is in the air for a shot, the foul has occurred.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I can go with this, it makes sense. The case play says the player scored; to me this is clear that the official's whistle came after the score. That said, it still makes sense, because if the officials catch the 6th player before the ball is in the air for a shot, the foul has occurred.

"Penalize when discovered."

[WIRef]

I think common sense needs to be applied here. The reason the federation changed the rule to make it an unsporting technical foul was because team A is puposely trying to decieve Team B. And in this scenario, that is exactly what is happening. To give Team A the basket (if made) would partially defeat what is trying to be corrected. Granted, Team B still gets the benefit of the "T", but the basket was scored as the result of the unsporting act. If its me, hopefully I recognize this act fast enough to whistle before the shot goes up. Either way, I am taking away the basket. JMO.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by WIRef

I think common sense needs to be applied here. The reason the federation changed the rule to make it an unsporting technical foul was because team A is puposely trying to decieve Team B. And in this scenario, that is exactly what is happening. To give Team A the basket (if made) would partially defeat what is trying to be corrected. Granted, Team B still gets the benefit of the "T", but the basket was scored as the result of the unsporting act. If its me, hopefully I recognize this act fast enough to whistle before the shot goes up. Either way, I am taking away the basket. JMO.

This has nothing to do with common sense, it is straight from the rule book. The ball becomes dead when the player starts acting like a dog. You sounding your whistle has nothing to do with the goal scoring or not as the ball was already dead.

[chartrusepengui]

Originally Posted by WIRef

If its me, hopefully I recognize this act fast enough to whistle before the shot goes up. Either way, I am taking away the basket. JMO.

shot - whistle - take away basket if made.

Coach: "shot was off before whistle!"
Me: "yep - I had a late whistle - sorry coach"