Charge?

[ref2coach]

Originally Posted by Spence

What about the following scenario?

A1 driving. B1 wants to take charge but starts to fall backwards way too early. He falls to the floor (without having been contacted by A1) and as A1 lands A1 trips over B1 and goes down.

Anything on B1?

T by rule. But a lot of referees make up all kinds of excuses to not assess it.

[Amesman]

Originally Posted by Spence

What about the following scenario?

A1 driving. B1 wants to take charge but starts to fall backwards way too early. He falls to the floor (without having been contacted by A1) and as A1 lands A1 trips over B1 and goes down.

Anything on B1?

I asked something similar to this a month or so ago, and the consensus seemed to be a) probably a no-call (if A1 has returned to the floor, after a shot, as I presume Spence means here), b) still possibly a charge (if B1 was simply trying to absorb the shock of an imminent charge but was just faked out, as it were. No T unless he's trying to obviously sell a phony call to the officials). Ultimately a HTBT.

But it was far from unanimous, as I recall.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by ref2coach

T by rule. But a lot of referees make up all kinds of excuses to not assess it.

Careful here. The T is assessed when a player fakes being fouled, not because they fall backwards early. They are allowed, by rule, to turn away or back away from contact. Now if the player grunts like they just got hit by a runaway elephant and fly backwards into the third row, all without any contact, then yes, you can probably say they were faking being fouled. But if they close their eyes and start to lean back expecting the contact that never comes, and end up falling down, then I wouldn't call that faking being fouled, and therefore not T-worthy.

Can you see the difference?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ref2coach

T by rule. But a lot of referees make up all kinds of excuses to not assess it.

Like M&M, I disagree with your ruling. Where is it a T for falling down too early?

BTW, I'm one of the few around here who have actually called this T; but it wasn't for falling down too early.

[ref2coach]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Careful here. The T is assessed when a player fakes being fouled, not because they fall back-wards early. They are allowed, by rule, to turn away or back away from contact. Now if the player grunts like they just got hit by a runaway elephant and fly back-wards into the third row, all without any contact, then yes, you can probably say they were faking being fouled. But if they close their eyes and start to lean back expecting the contact that never comes, and end up falling down, then I wouldn't call that faking being fouled, and therefore not T-worthy.

Can you see the difference?

I have seen and know the difference.

Notice I said "a lot" not all.

I rarely see a player "close their eyes and start to fall backward expecting contact that never comes." What I most frequently witness is the player who, someone has attempted to teach to draw a foul, does not have any or minimal contact then falls to the floor and looks for an official expecting a foul to be called. While the culprit's coach is shouting "thats a charge".

[Adam]

IMO, faking being fouled is different than attempting to "sell" a foul the player believes is either imminent or already transpired.

[ref2coach]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

IMO, faking being fouled is different than attempting to "sell" a foul the player believes is either imminent or already transpired.

FAKE: to pretend; simulate; to trick or deceive; anything made to appear otherwise than it actually is; counterfeit;

The situation as described by Spense was the defender "wanting to take a charge" and falling backward without any contact. The question as asked, had the referee already making the judgment that the defender was "wanting the charge" the player then fell backward without contact. You may choose to create contortions in logic to avoid punishing the faker but the information provided in this situation meets the criteria to assess the correct penalty.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by ref2coach

FAKE: to pretend; simulate; to trick or deceive; anything made to appear otherwise than it actually is; counterfeit;

Agree.

Originally Posted by ref2coach

The situation as described by Spense was the defender "wanting to take a charge" and falling backward without any contact.

Ok, here is where you've lost me - how does this meet the definition you provided above? I know taking a charge can be painful, both in the initial contact with the offensive player, and when I hit the ground after contact. I know one way to lessen the pain of the initial contact is to back away from it; I would even contend that's done on instinct. So, how does a player back away from the contact and be "faking" being fouled?

[ref2coach]

The way I am reading Spence's situation the player is not absorbing or lessening contact the player is "wanting the charge" and is falling down without having been contacted. Simulating contact that did not occur.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by ref2coach

The way I am reading Spence's situation the player is not absorbing or lessening contact the player is "wanting the charge" and is falling down without having been contacted. Simulating contact that did not occur.

Exactly. I don't see absorbing contact as meaning to fall down.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by ref2coach

The way I am reading Spence's situation the player is not absorbing or lessening contact the player is "wanting the charge" and is falling down without having been contacted. Simulating contact that did not occur.

Are you 100% sure this is the case? Then call the T. If you are only 95% sure, then do not call it. That is why you do not see it called often - it is a severe penalty, so you better be absolutely sure the only intent was to deceive, and there was absolutely no other reason that player was on the floor.

I called it about 5 years ago. It was obvious to everyone in the gym, and it came even after mentioning it to the coach after the player had tried the same thing earlier in the game. Similar to calling a T for the actions of the crowd - it can be called, but how often do you actually see it? (Last night's Santa Clara/Gonzaga game, perhaps...) There are other methods of handling those situations, rather than going directly to the T. But if it becomes that obvious, then by all means, penalize accordingly.

[WIRef]

How many of you use preventitive officiating the first time it happens, and either talk to the player that is "Flopping", or talk to coach? Again, this would probably depend on the severity or situation it happened for the first time. You may have to bypass the talk and go right to "T". In most cases, I am going to talk with player first. As mentioned above, it is a severe penalty, so you better be 100% sure. Just MO.

[ref2coach]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Are you 100% sure this is the case? Then call the T. If you are only 95% sure, then do not call it. That is why you do not see it called often - it is a severe penalty, so you better be absolutely sure the only intent was to deceive, and there was absolutely no other reason that player was on the floor.

I called it about 5 years ago. It was obvious to everyone in the gym, and it came even after mentioning it to the coach after the player had tried the same thing earlier in the game. Similar to calling a T for the actions of the crowd - it can be called, but how often do you actually see it? (Last night's Santa Clara/Gonzaga game, perhaps...) There are other methods of handling those situations, rather than going directly to the T. But if it becomes that obvious, then by all means, penalize accordingly.

Really? How many times have I read on this board that a "Technical Foul is JUST a foul" that we are to call with no other "emotion or fanfare than any other foul."

Really? NFHS must not feel that way they do not include a caveat or warning after describing the penalty for faking a foul.

I am not advocating that every game needs this call but I am saying when it is clear to the referee that a player is trying to cheat by faking being fouled why not treat it as any other situation where the rules clearly state the penalty for a foul and it is clear to the referee that faking has occurred? Why should referees look for "other ways to handle the situation" when the rule book clearly states how to handle it?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by ref2coach

Really? How many times have I read on this board that a "Technical Foul is JUST a foul" that we are to call with no other "emotion or fanfare than any other foul."

You seem to be confusing the emotion of calling some T's with what I am stating is the level of severity of the foul. Usually a T is given for unsporting conduct during an emotional event of some sort, and the purpose of the above statement is to remind us that we are not to become emotional back at the player or coach, but rather simply make the call as unemotional as we would any other travel or foul. It does not change the fact a T is still one of the most severe penalties in the rule book, short of a flagrant ejection.

Originally Posted by ref2coach

Really? NFHS must not feel that way they do not include a caveat or warning after describing the penalty for faking a foul.

What does this have to do whether or not we make the call?

Are you aware of the reason the NFHS changed the penalty of excessive swinging of elbows from a T to a violation?

[WIRef]

I will always go with the theory of trying to use preventitive officiating, when possible. Sometimes rules are established as guidelines to create a "fairness" to the game. I will not call a 3-second violation in the first minute of the game (unless blatantly advantageous), but rather talk to the player(s) to get them to understand what we are seeing. To me, a whistle at that point of a contest is just a "game interupter", when we are trying to establish a flow to the game. You may say I am overlooking a rule, but with no advantage gained, I will use this method most times. My point is that I would do the same in a "Flop" situation. If it is severe enough, I will bang it. But most times I am going to use preventitive officiating to clear up the matter.