Elbow Swinging II

[bbcoach7]

don't guard them with your face. Obviously not right after one of them has been elbowed in the nose.

And if one of mine accidentally elbows a defender in the face and she was not excessively swinging her elbows, I tell her, "She shouldn't have been guarding you with her face."

But as I mentioned in the first elbow swinging thread- all my defender has to do is change her arm position to cross her arms at the wrist, stick her open hands up in the players face to obstruct vision, and now the elbows can't contact my players face without first hitting forearms or wrists.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bbcoach7

But as I mentioned in the first elbow swinging thread- all my defender has to do is change her arm position to cross her arms at the wrist, stick her open hands up in the players face to obstruct vision,

How close is she getting to the face; could be a T.

[OHBBREF]

We are discusing two different things here, a violation which falls under the rule below and specifically says that Feinting or moving it to prevent a held ball or loss of control shall not be considered excessive.

Which I would presume to mean that if the defender is trying to get to the ball, the offensive player can pivot or move the ball to maintain control exempt from this guidline. If the defender is just standing there with their arms elevated in perfect defensive position then we could have an issue.

SECTION 13 EXCESSIVE SWINGING OF ARM(S)/ELBOW(S)
ART. 1 . . . A player shall not excessively swing his/her arms(s) or elbow(s), even without contacting an opponent.
ART. 2 . . . A player may extend arm(s) or elbow(s) to hold the ball under the chin or against the body.
ART. 3 . . . Action of arm(s) and elbow(s) resulting from total body movements as in pivoting or movement of the ball incidental to feinting with it, releasing it, or moving it to prevent a held ball or loss of control shall not be considered excessive. PENALTYSection 13) The ball is dead when the violation occurs and is awarded to the opponents for a throw-in from the designated out-of-bounds spot nearest the violation. (See 6-7-9 Exception d)

With regard to a foul either PC or on the defense, that determination is made based on the players position on the floor as well as the advantage disadvantage principles we abide by, and if the swing of the elbows is excessive then the foul would need to be called Intentional/flagrant if PC.

What people fail to realize in most cases based on the Fed rule, if the defender is trying to get at the ball the offensive player has the right to move the ball around to avoid the defenders aggression, and it is not considered excessive. When there is contact within the vertical plane of the offensive player the foul would be on the defense. If the offensive player pivots to the defender and contacts them it would be player control.

This rule is not called more often IMHO because it is misunderstood, the time when people want it called is usually when it should not be called.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

...if the swing of the elbows is excessive then the foul would need to be called Intentional/flagrant if PC.

Nope, intentional and flagrant fouls cannot be PC fouls.

The contact certainly can be deemed intentional or flagrant, but that would then result in two FTs for the offended player.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Nope, intentional and flagrant fouls cannot be PC fouls.

The contact certainly can be deemed intentional or flagrant, but that would then result in two FTs for the offended player.

Correct my choice of type of foul was worded incorrectly should have said "If charged to the offensive player."

[BubbaRef]

I had this same exact play in my girls 3a regional last night and I ended up calling an offensive foul because the offense made contact with the defense with her elbow and the defenders chin. The defender went down and the call had to be made. The coach of the team I called the foul on said nothing when I made it. Also talked to a state finals official that was at the game and he said it was an excellent call also.

I would think that if some kind of contact is made in the scenario's in this thread something has to be called a foul on defense or offense, or if you have excessive swinging then call a violation. I would hate for this to have happened and nothing called.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by BubbaRef

I would think that if some kind of contact is made in the scenario's in this thread something has to be called, either violation or foul on defense or offense. I would hate for this to have happened and nothing called.

contact violation?????

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BubbaRef

I had this same exact play in my girls 3a regional last night and I ended up calling an offensive foul because the offense made contact with the defense with her elbow and the defenders chin. The defender went down and the call had to be made. The coach of the team I called the foul on said nothing when I made it. Also talked to a state finals official that was at the game and he said it was an excellent call also.

I would think that if some kind of contact is made in the scenario's in this thread something has to be called a foul on defense or offense, or if you have excessive swinging then call a violation. I would hate for this to have happened and nothing called.

Let me ask you, then. A1 gets a rebound, B1 standing, leaning over A1 invading his rightful space. A1 pivots, elbows out but not swinging them excessively, hitting B1 square in the jaw with his elbow.

What are you going to call, since you have to have something?

[bbcoach7]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

How close is she getting to the face; could be a T.

I'd guesstimate maybe 12-18 inches away.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bbcoach7

I'd guesstimate maybe 12-18 inches away.

Sounds good. I was just curious, as 3-4 inches would probably be a T.

[Kelvin green]

Lets break this down

1) Excessive swinging of the elbows (THE VIOLATION) is a non basketball play. Look at the definition as posted above...

2) Verticality does have to do with LGP. It's in the definition of Verticality

3) Some here need to review 4-45....

Verticality applies to legal position 4-45-1 also goes on and states LGP must be obtained initiatlly and movement thereafter must be legal.

That being said... I completely disagree with Deecee. There is a difference between excessively swinging an elbow and pivoting and hitting a defender with the elbow.

I know how much we all (in the US) like FIBA rules bit they have a pretty good definition of the vertical cylinder

Cylinder principle
The cylinder principle is defined as the space within an imaginary cylinder occupied by a player on the floor. It includes the space above the player and is limited to:
• The front by the palms of the hands,
• The rear by the buttocks, and
• The sides by the outside edge of the arms and legs.
The hands and arms may be extended in front of the torso no further than the
position of the feet, with the arms bent at the elbows so that the forearms and hands are raised. The distance between his feet will vary according to his height. (we all know in NFHS this is no more than shoulder width)

When the offensive player has the ball and his elbows cocked, the elbows may be in the vertical plane, but when the offensive player takes the step and pivots like they do a lot (extending out and pivoting) the elbows are no longer in the cylinder and foul will be on offense.... This is where refereeing the defense is critical because then you know what A does to B...

If someone takes a shot with the elbow- You cant go advantage/disadvantage) This is a foul that has to be called. If you dont you'll get an escalation....

There is nothing that allows an offensive player to pivot within reason....If the offensive player pivots into a player who is playing appropriate defense, dont reward the offense by letting them pivot and use elbows. If you dont call it, it becomes a hughe advantage later in the game because the defense will not play defense thinking they wont get any calls.

Never penalize good and proper defense

[BillyMac]

Check this out. A1 gets a rebound and pivots with his elbows out. The pivot is 180 degrees, as is the arc of the elbow swing, so it's not excessive swinging. At the same time, B1, trying to deny the outlet pass, takes a step toward A1, and A1's moving elbow meets B1's moving face, at the same time.

1) What do have?

2) Does it matter if B1 is in a great deal of pain, while A1 is just standing there?

3) Does it matter if after A1's elbow contacts B1's face, the ball pops out of A1's hands, but B1 was still in a great deal of pain?

4) Does it matter if A1 was moving his elbows in an arc more than his pivot, and was judged to be excessively swinging his elbows, but B1 was still moving toward A1 when contact occurred?