Elbow Swinging II

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

Mills Lane to give an eight count?

Please spell my man's name correctly. BTW there is an article about his current situation and his family in the current issue of RM.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bbcoach7

I'd guesstimate maybe 12-18 inches away.

Sounds good. I was just curious, as 3-4 inches would probably be a T.

[Kelvin green]

Lets break this down

1) Excessive swinging of the elbows (THE VIOLATION) is a non basketball play. Look at the definition as posted above...

2) Verticality does have to do with LGP. It's in the definition of Verticality

3) Some here need to review 4-45....

Verticality applies to legal position 4-45-1 also goes on and states LGP must be obtained initiatlly and movement thereafter must be legal.

That being said... I completely disagree with Deecee. There is a difference between excessively swinging an elbow and pivoting and hitting a defender with the elbow.

I know how much we all (in the US) like FIBA rules bit they have a pretty good definition of the vertical cylinder

Cylinder principle
The cylinder principle is defined as the space within an imaginary cylinder occupied by a player on the floor. It includes the space above the player and is limited to:
• The front by the palms of the hands,
• The rear by the buttocks, and
• The sides by the outside edge of the arms and legs.
The hands and arms may be extended in front of the torso no further than the
position of the feet, with the arms bent at the elbows so that the forearms and hands are raised. The distance between his feet will vary according to his height. (we all know in NFHS this is no more than shoulder width)

When the offensive player has the ball and his elbows cocked, the elbows may be in the vertical plane, but when the offensive player takes the step and pivots like they do a lot (extending out and pivoting) the elbows are no longer in the cylinder and foul will be on offense.... This is where refereeing the defense is critical because then you know what A does to B...

If someone takes a shot with the elbow- You cant go advantage/disadvantage) This is a foul that has to be called. If you dont you'll get an escalation....

There is nothing that allows an offensive player to pivot within reason....If the offensive player pivots into a player who is playing appropriate defense, dont reward the offense by letting them pivot and use elbows. If you dont call it, it becomes a hughe advantage later in the game because the defense will not play defense thinking they wont get any calls.

Never penalize good and proper defense

[BillyMac]

Check this out. A1 gets a rebound and pivots with his elbows out. The pivot is 180 degrees, as is the arc of the elbow swing, so it's not excessive swinging. At the same time, B1, trying to deny the outlet pass, takes a step toward A1, and A1's moving elbow meets B1's moving face, at the same time.

1) What do have?

2) Does it matter if B1 is in a great deal of pain, while A1 is just standing there?

3) Does it matter if after A1's elbow contacts B1's face, the ball pops out of A1's hands, but B1 was still in a great deal of pain?

4) Does it matter if A1 was moving his elbows in an arc more than his pivot, and was judged to be excessively swinging his elbows, but B1 was still moving toward A1 when contact occurred?