NFHS: Excessively swinging elbows

[Adam]

Originally Posted by w_sohl

I'll do that, I'm not writing the report, my R is, but I will contact him and let him know.

The R is writing the report even though you made the call? I find that backwards; the calling official should write the report.

[w_sohl]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The R is writing the report even though you made the call? I find that backwards; the calling official should write the report.

That is what I thought. In fact, I went to the book to get the number so I could write the report and get it correct. Anyhow, I had a copy of the report this morning and I replied with the following.

"After not feeling great about the call I did some research last night. I'm of the opinion that instead of a flagrant personal I should have ruled this an intentional foul and not ejected the player. The contact was neither violent nor sever but it was excessive and warranted an intentional instead of the flagrant. Please take this into consideration when deciding on whether or not to suspend the player for the next game."

[mbyron]

I had a situation recently in a frosh boys game where I had to decide what kind of foul to call. B1 rebounded under A's basket, and A1 grabbed for the ball, fouling him. A1 then wrapped him up by the waist and tackled him.

My first thought was: foul for the hold, T for the tackle.

My second thought was: maybe that's just one foul, a flagrant personal.

In the end, (before I got to the table) I opted for one foul, an intentional personal for excessive contact. We shot 2 and B got the ball under A's basket (near the spot of the foul).

The A coach got his angel face on and asked, "Intentional? What did he do?" "Well, he tackled him, coach." "Oh."

In retrospect, I still think I got it right.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by w_sohl

That is what I thought. In fact, I went to the book to get the number so I could write the report and get it correct. Anyhow, I had a copy of the report this morning and I replied with the following.

"After not feeling great about the call I did some research last night. I'm of the opinion that instead of a flagrant personal I should have ruled this an intentional foul and not ejected the player. The contact was neither violent nor sever but it was excessive and warranted an intentional instead of the flagrant. Please take this into consideration when deciding on whether or not to suspend the player for the next game."

Was there any chance you could have gotten info from your partner(s) before ruling it flagrant?

Reason I ask is because I have one supervisor who mandates that before reporting a flagrant foul (or fight) to the table that the calling official check with his partner(s) for possible addtional information that could help in the ruling.

[w_sohl]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Was there any chance you could have gotten info from your partner(s) before ruling it flagrant?

Reason I ask is because I have one supervisor who mandates that before reporting a flagrant foul (or fight) to the table that the calling official check with his partner(s) for possible addtional information that could help in the ruling.

We got together before I reported. He went with it as well at the time.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by w_sohl

That is what I thought. In fact, I went to the book to get the number so I could write the report and get it correct. Anyhow, I had a copy of the report this morning and I replied with the following.

"After not feeling great about the call I did some research last night. I'm of the opinion that instead of a flagrant personal I should have ruled this an intentional foul and not ejected the player. The contact was neither violent nor sever but it was excessive and warranted an intentional instead of the flagrant. Please take this into consideration when deciding on whether or not to suspend the player for the next game."

I think that you just did the right thing.

Also, some areas have the R write the official game report, no matter what. I know of a couple of areas in which the officials don't get paid until the R submits a game report, even if it is only to say that there weren't any problems. Most places are fine with having a supplementary report from an umpire, if needed.

[jdmara]

I'm going to be a little bit of a devil's advocate here (with great consideration that this is a HTBT-type play). If the elbow lands a direct blow to the face and knocks the opposing player to the ground, I'm going with a flagrant in this case. Obviously there was excessive force (so we at least have an intentional personal foul) but a blow to the face is violent by nature, isn't it? I guess the play I'm envisioning in my mind would be a flagrant personal foul as you originally called it. On the other hand if the elbow lands a similar blow to the chest, I might be more partial to call this an intentional personal foul. Just my two cents, right or wrong

-Josh

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by jdmara

I'm going to be a little bit of a devil's advocate here (with great consideration that this is a HTBT-type play). If the elbow lands a direct blow to the face and knocks the opposing player to the ground, I'm going with a flagrant in this case. Obviously there was excessive force (so we at least have an intentional personal foul) but a blow to the face is violent by nature, isn't it? I guess the play I'm envisioning in my mind would be a flagrant personal foul as you originally called it. On the other hand if the elbow lands a similar blow to the chest, I might be more partial to call this an intentional personal foul. Just my two cents, right or wrong

-Josh

I would be careful about using where the blow lands as your only criteria. What if A1 is significantly taller, and the elbow happens to hit B1 in the face as A1 is looking downcourt at a teammate who is breaking open? I would treat this different than A1 trying to create space, takes a look at B1, then lands the elbow in the same spot with the same force as my first example. Iow, intent should be a part of the decision.

[chartrusepengui]

Originally Posted by jdmara

I'm going to be a little bit of a devil's advocate here (with great consideration that this is a HTBT-type play). If the elbow lands a direct blow to the face and knocks the opposing player to the ground, I'm going with a flagrant in this case. Obviously there was excessive force (so we at least have an intentional personal foul) but a blow to the face is violent by nature, isn't it?
-Josh

Disagree. Had a game with a big (really big - like 6'11" 300#) guy gets rebound in middle of lane. He chins the ball and pivots. As he pivots, he catches B1 who was behind him, over opposite shoulder but moving accross lane turning to get back on defense. A1 caught him square in the kisser with his elbow as he pivoted. B1 hits floor. A1 got foul but it was not flagrant in this case. There was no intent - I don't think he knew B1 was coming across behind him. No problems with either coach on the call. You have to judge each case on its own merits.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I would be careful about using where the blow lands as your only criteria. What if A1 is significantly taller, and the elbow happens to hit B1 in the face as A1 is looking downcourt at a teammate who is breaking open? I would treat this different than A1 trying to create space, takes a look at B1, then lands the elbow in the same spot with the same force as my first example. Iow, intent should be a part of the decision.

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

Disagree. Had a game with a big (really big - like 6'11" 300#) guy gets rebound in middle of lane. He chins the ball and pivots. As he pivots, he catches B1 who was behind him, over opposite shoulder but moving accross lane turning to get back on defense. A1 caught him square in the kisser with his elbow as he pivoted. B1 hits floor. A1 got foul but it was not flagrant in this case. There was no intent - I don't think he knew B1 was coming across behind him. No problems with either coach on the call. You have to judge each case on its own merits.

First of all, I agree with what you both said. Each case has to be based on its own merits, this is a HTBT play, and the landing strip for the elbow should never be the only criteria whether something is flagrant or not.

However, excessively swinging of the elbows is definitely different than pivoting and an extended elbow catches someone in the face. Excessively, at least to me, means that the the players torso is not coinciding with the player's elbows.

-Josh