Excessively Swinging Arms or Elbows

[Fox40]

Always like to revisit certain topics and see how everyone is making this call. Rule 10-3 Art. 8g; Player Unsportsmanlike Technical Foul; Excessively swing his/her arm(s)or elbow(s)EVEN THOUGH THERE IS NO CONTACT WITH AN OPPONENT (emphasis mine).
Ok, there is no contact but A1, in your judgment,"excessively" swings his elbows to prevent from being tied up for a jump ball, BUT doesn't make contact with B1. This is the first time it happens in the game. Do you (1)blow the whistle and make the infamous "T" with your hands immediately, (2) ignore it then verbally warn the player at the next opportunity, (3)ignore it all together because of no contact. I know the temperment of the game, the player's attitude, etc. may be different in every case, but how would you normally treat this "by the rule T-Foul"?

Gary

[ken roberts]

If A1 is excessively swinging his elbows and B1 is right there playing defense we have to call that T.

Yes, it's a harsh penalty, two free throws and loss-of-possession, but safety's my foremost concern and T emphatically sends that message. Safety is why the NF made this a T, whereas it's only a violation in NCAA.

That said, the only time i ever made this call there was contact. I have issued verbal warnings a couple times, either because there was no other players around or the swinging wasn't quite "excessive" enough for me to call a T.

[Ron Pilo]

Gary,

You are correct, the demeanor of the game will usually dictate the call, however there are a couple of simple criteria that you can apply. If the player is swinging from the shoulders it's a "T". No talking to, nothing. If they are swinging from the waist and it seems a little excessive I will mention it to the player.

Just like handchecking some things are just automatic......like two hands..............
shoulders is automatic.

------------------
Ron
Seattle Officials - Women's Basketball

[Richard Kreimer]

Gary, no matter what tempo you want to set, the fact that the elbowsn were (your qoute" excesivelly swinging is an automatic "T" no if's, and's or but's. Player safety is rule 1

[Mark Padgett]

Guys - let's really read into this rule and get the exact meaning correct. The reason the wording in the rule "even though there is no contact" defines the reason you would make the call of a technical foul. I'm not trying to say you don't have the discretion of determining whether or not the swinging was "excessive" in order to determine if you should call the foul. My point actually has nothing to do with that. Remember, technical fouls are only called for non-contact events during play, or contact events not during play. If a player swings his/her elbows excessively and DOES make contact, it cannot be called as a technical, but only as a common, intentional or flagrant foul. I didn't state that just to be nit-picky, but to make the point that maybe you should use the following reasoning as your criteria whether or not to call the T when there is no contact: since a T carries the same penalty as an intentional foul, but more than a common foul, only call the T for non-contact if you would have considered it intentional (or flagrant) if there would have been contact, but not if you would have called only a common foul. This reasoning seems to make sense in defining "excessive" to me. By this I mean it was "excessive" if it would have mandated an intentional or flagrant call if contact had been made. Comments?

[ken roberts]

You're correct, Mark. I also agree with your rule of thumb on when to call the T.

I just re-read article 4-19-3 and i'm curious about the intentional foul if the elbow-swinger makes contact. The rule states that "A foul shall be ruled intentional if while playing the ball a player causes excessive contact with an opponent."

In our situation, the transgressor has the ball so is he still considered to be "playing" it?

[Mark Padgett]

Although no one can state what the entire intent of the NF rules committee was when they instituted the intentional foul change to include excessive contact even when playing the ball, many of us started using it in much the same way the NBA has a "flagrant level 1" and a "flagrant level 2", with the level 2 including ejection. That is - the intentional is used when the foul went beyond a common foul, but did not warrant ejection. I believe that when a player excessively swings elbows, makes contact beyond the level of a common foul (in which case it would be player control) but not enough to warrant an ejection, you are justified in calling it an intentional foul and you treat it just like any other intentional foul call, which means you shoot the free throws and give possession to the other team. One other thought - if the elbows miss but you felt the offensive player was trying to intimidate the defender, you should call the T regardless of the severity or "excessiveness" of the swinging. This would be a T for unsportsmanlike conduct.

In my post above, I give some tips for how to determine if the swinging is excessive, using the model of "what would you have called if contact had been made?" You can use the same method for determining if a player was attempting a legitimate shot when an airball results and that player is first to touch. Think of it this way - if that player had been contacted when releasing the ball, would you have called a shooting foul? If so, it was a try. If you would have called it "on the ground", it wasn't - and you should call a travel. Of course, there's always the situation where the contact caused the ball to miss on a try, but that's a whole different can of worms

[This message has been edited by Mark Padgett (edited October 22, 1999).]

[ken roberts]

Dave, two responses:

- If you call an intentional foul, it is not considered a player-control foul even though he had the ball. Player-control only applies to common fouls...

- To avoid the lighter penalty when there is contact, i reckon you could always call a T for the initial swing before contact, and not for the contact itself...

[Dave King]

...which leads us to...

If player A1, in player control, makes contact with the "excessive" elbow, it is a player control foul (no free throws for "B")

But if you deem it intentional, do you or do you not shoot the free throws?

The penalty seems to be worse for swinging the elbows and MISSING, than it is for swinging the elbows and making contact.

Swing & a miss = Tech. 2 shots, ball out of bounds

Swing & contact = Player control foul. Ball out of bounds.

Any Thoughts?...

[Fox40]

Ahh, interesting replies. The rule that I mentioned uses the word "unsportsmanlike" for excessively swinging. In my judgment, if I thought the swinging was "excessive" and no contact was made AND there were opponents near by, I am T-ing the player. If the player is all alone and there is no danger to another player, I give a verbal warning. Now, what is "excessive"? That has always varied from official to official. I believe Ron posted that swinging from the shoulders was excessive. (I agree). I would like to take it one step further and say if the player had his/her elbows very high and spreadout and could easily "find a face of an opponent" and swung from the shoulders that is "excessive". Remember this is ruled as an unsportsmanlike technical.
Now how about a flagrant technical in this case? Whether contact was made or not, if the "intent" was there and the player was intending to take someone out, it probably could be deemed a flagrant technical. That would be a tough call and I am not sure I would make it unless actual contact was made. A flagrant carries with it ejection and missing the next scheduled game. I would use an unsportsmanlike player technical instead as the rule states.
Someone give an example of an intentional foul in this case as opposed to an unsportsmanlike technical. The penalty would be the same except where the ball is put in play.
Great input. Thanks all.

Gary

[Camron Rust]

It is a T for swinging the elbows excessively. It does NOT matter whether there was contact or not. The "even though there is no contact" only says that you should not wait for contact to call it.

The foul is NOT a contact foul but an unsportsmanlike foul. It occurs when the elbows are swung, not when the contact is made.

Common sense even says that the penalty for contact should not be less than the penalty for non-contact.

Consider also that fighting is included in this rule. Fighting may well occur during a live ball and it usually involves contact (but may not). But, it is still a flagrant T for the act of fighting even if there is no contact.