Singler Elbow to Hansbrough's Jaw

[Spence]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUFeSOjYfdU

If the elbow to Hansbrough was deemed accidental should it be a T?

[deecee]

No.

Its either flagrant or incidental. Especially during a live ball.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by deecee

No.

Its either flagrant or incidental. Especially during a live ball.

It could be intentional. It does not have to be flagrant.

And since this was a dead ball, it can only be called if it is intentional or flagrant.

Peace

[Spence]

Originally Posted by deecee

No.

Its either flagrant or incidental. Especially during a live ball.

The ball was dead. So I would have to either deem it intentional or flagrant, right?

[dahoopref]

What you have here is an Intentional Technical foul.

The ball is dead due to the ruling of the jump ball. When a contact foul is made when the ball is dead, it is automatically an "intentional technical foul." It does not matter if the officials ruled the foul accidental or not. 2 shots for the offended team and they get the ball at the half-court. There is no POI in this situation.

[Spence]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It could be intentional. It does not have to be flagrant.

And since this was a dead ball, it can only be called if it is intentional or flagrant.

Peace

If IMO it was accidental (as in his hand slipped off the ball when he was trying to pull the ball away) I've got nothing?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by deecee

No.

Its either flagrant or incidental. Especially during a live ball.

Agree you can't call it a technical during a live ball, but you could still call it a common personal foul. You could still call it an intentional foul (if it's severe enough contact) even if you don't think it was done "on purpose".

If the ball is dead, you can call this a technical foul. Looked to me at first glance that it wasn't accidental.

But to say it's either flagrant or incidental is incorrect.

[Spence]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

What you have here is an Intentional Technical foul.

The ball is dead due to the ruling of the jump ball. When a contact foul is made when the ball is dead, it is automatically an "intentional technical foul." It does not matter if the officials ruled the foul accidental or not. 2 shots for the offended team and they get the ball at the half-court. There is no POI in this situation.

So if I have A1 dribbling and I call B1 for a hold right at the time that B2 is coming up to double team him and B2 bumps A1 after the whistle its a T?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

It does not matter if the officials ruled the foul accidental or not. 2 shots for the offended team and they get the ball at the half-court. There is no POI in this situation.

Well it does matter. If the officials rule this accidental or (better language) incidental, then it is nothing. This is only a foul if the official’s rule (a dead ball) intentional or flagrant. If it is not ruled that way, it is incidental contact and should be passed on.

Peace

[vbzebra]

Originally Posted by Spence

The ball was dead. So I would have to either deem it intentional or flagrant, right?

That's the case in NFHS...not sure if its the same or if the ruling is different in NCAAM. Maybe some of the college officials who post can help us out?

[dahoopref]

I'm just wondering why the officials didn't go to the monitor to confirm the elbow (which I'm sure the C saw). It was my understanding that any punch/elbow needed to be review with a monitor to make sure it wasn't thrown intentionally.

I remember a case where an official ejected a player where he thought the player threw a punch. He did not review the play on the monitor. The replay showed that the player did not throw a punch and was unjustly ejected. A memo from that conference came down that all possible punches/elbows were to be reviewed. Unfortunately the official who ejected the player was suspended for one game.

[dahoopref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well it does matter. If the officials rule this accidental or (better language) incidental, then it is nothing. This is only a foul if the official’s rule (a dead ball) intentional or flagrant. If it is not ruled that way, it is incidental contact and should be passed on.

Peace

I agree with you assessment that incidental contact should be ignored; I do not think that the elbow was incidental. But a common foul (such as a slap on the arm that neither intentional or flagrant) during a dead ball is still an intentional technical foul; do we agree?

[deecee]

If I think that thatwas intentional then I am going flagrant. There is no way that i will look at an elbow thrown and made contact intentionally as just an intentional foul. In this case I would either have a no call or an ejection.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Spence

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUFeSOjYfdU

If the elbow to Hansbrough was deemed accidental should it be a T?

I can't view YouTube at work. But Singler did receive an Intentional Technical foul last night and NC took the ball out at half court. Was this the play or a different one? I wasn't paying close attention to the TV but wasn't Singler's T after some kind of scrum for a loose ball?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

What you have here is an Intentional Technical foul.

The ball is dead due to the ruling of the jump ball. When a contact foul is made when the ball is dead, it is automatically an "intentional technical foul." It does not matter if the officials ruled the foul accidental or not. 2 shots for the offended team and they get the ball at the half-court. There is no POI in this situation.

1. No. It could be a flagrant T. And not all contact when the ball is dead is a foul (ignored if not flagrant or intentional).

2. If the contact was "accidental" in the sense of not intentional or flagrant, then it does matter: don't call the foul.

3. There is always a POI on every whistle, though it is not always relevant to how to put the ball back in play.