Singler Elbow to Hansbrough's Jaw

Spence · #1 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 12, 2009, 01:19pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUFeSOjYfdU

If the elbow to Hansbrough was deemed accidental should it be a T?

deecee · #2 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 12, 2009, 01:24pm

No.

Its either flagrant or incidental. Especially during a live ball.

JRutledge · #3 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 12, 2009, 01:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee

No.

Its either flagrant or incidental. Especially during a live ball.

It could be intentional. It does not have to be flagrant.

And since this was a dead ball, it can only be called if it is intentional or flagrant.

Peace

Spence · #4 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 12, 2009, 01:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It could be intentional. It does not have to be flagrant.

And since this was a dead ball, it can only be called if it is intentional or flagrant.

Peace

If IMO it was accidental (as in his hand slipped off the ball when he was trying to pull the ball away) I've got nothing?

GoodwillRef · #5 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 13, 2009, 01:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spence

If IMO it was accidental (as in his hand slipped off the ball when he was trying to pull the ball away) I've got nothing?

There is no way this is accidental...it has to be a technical foul.

Spence · #6 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 12, 2009, 01:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee

No.

Its either flagrant or incidental. Especially during a live ball.

The ball was dead. So I would have to either deem it intentional or flagrant, right?

vbzebra · #7 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 12, 2009, 01:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spence

The ball was dead. So I would have to either deem it intentional or flagrant, right?

That's the case in NFHS...not sure if its the same or if the ruling is different in NCAAM. Maybe some of the college officials who post can help us out?

Adam · #8 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 12, 2009, 01:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee

No.

Its either flagrant or incidental. Especially during a live ball.

Agree you can't call it a technical during a live ball, but you could still call it a common personal foul. You could still call it an intentional foul (if it's severe enough contact) even if you don't think it was done "on purpose".

If the ball is dead, you can call this a technical foul. Looked to me at first glance that it wasn't accidental.

But to say it's either flagrant or incidental is incorrect.

dahoopref · #9 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 12, 2009, 01:29pm

What you have here is an Intentional Technical foul.

The ball is dead due to the ruling of the jump ball. When a contact foul is made when the ball is dead, it is automatically an "intentional technical foul." It does not matter if the officials ruled the foul accidental or not. 2 shots for the offended team and they get the ball at the half-court. There is no POI in this situation.

Spence · #10 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 12, 2009, 01:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahoopref

What you have here is an Intentional Technical foul.

The ball is dead due to the ruling of the jump ball. When a contact foul is made when the ball is dead, it is automatically an "intentional technical foul." It does not matter if the officials ruled the foul accidental or not. 2 shots for the offended team and they get the ball at the half-court. There is no POI in this situation.

So if I have A1 dribbling and I call B1 for a hold right at the time that B2 is coming up to double team him and B2 bumps A1 after the whistle its a T?

JRutledge · #11 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 12, 2009, 01:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahoopref

It does not matter if the officials ruled the foul accidental or not. 2 shots for the offended team and they get the ball at the half-court. There is no POI in this situation.

Well it does matter. If the officials rule this accidental or (better language) incidental, then it is nothing. This is only a foul if the official’s rule (a dead ball) intentional or flagrant. If it is not ruled that way, it is incidental contact and should be passed on.

Peace

dahoopref · #12 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 12, 2009, 01:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well it does matter. If the officials rule this accidental or (better language) incidental, then it is nothing. This is only a foul if the official’s rule (a dead ball) intentional or flagrant. If it is not ruled that way, it is incidental contact and should be passed on.

Peace

I agree with you assessment that incidental contact should be ignored; I do not think that the elbow was incidental. But a common foul (such as a slap on the arm that neither intentional or flagrant) during a dead ball is still an intentional technical foul; do we agree?

deecee · #13 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 12, 2009, 01:51pm

If I think that thatwas intentional then I am going flagrant. There is no way that i will look at an elbow thrown and made contact intentionally as just an intentional foul. In this case I would either have a no call or an ejection.

JRutledge · #14 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 12, 2009, 02:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahoopref

I agree with you assessment that incidental contact should be ignored; I do not think that the elbow was incidental. But a common foul (such as a slap on the arm that neither intentional or flagrant) during a dead ball is still an intentional technical foul; do we agree?

Why could it not be a Flagrant Technical?

Peace

bigda65 · #15 (**permalink**) Thu Feb 12, 2009, 02:58pm

I am a Carolina fan, but I think the contact was incidental. He was pulling really hard on the ball, hand slips - hence the elbow.

Now he probably shouldnt have been pulling so hard on the ball, because of the whistle.

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