Conduct: Both Players and Officials

[Adam]

Originally Posted by camargue44

Fair enough. Good point about the pivoting - though it doesn't apply to my situation I'll definitely bare that in mind in the future.

I had a player get knocked in the eye by a pivoting rebounder. He was leaning over top of the offensive player, I had a no-call and coach wasn't happy.

[camargue44]

Haha...I'm fairly certain. For a couple of reasons. Went up for the rebound - he got it - and from the time I came down until the contact occurred - which may have been 5-10 seconds - my feet never moved - I landed in a position that allowed me to defend the outlet pass - the only difference: my arms were outstretched at my sides and perfectly straight.

We were both upright - no one leaning over another. I definitely "touched" him but the contact occurred when his elbow contacted my face in a sideways swinging motion out from his body - bare in mind that I was at least 3" taller than the offensive player so to contact my face (I'm not bent over at all) his elbows would have to be above his shoulder level.

REGARDLESS - if it's obvious that a defensive player is elbowed in the face and the referee still believes it was a defensive foul I think it ultimately benefits the official to give some explanation (especially in this instance) because if you're comfortable walking away just saying "you fouled him" you have a player running around the rest of the game thinking it's okay to elbow people in the face.

As strange as it may seem if the official said to me: Regardless of it being an elbow to your face because I SAW it as you moving toward him you didn't have LPG so the contact becomes your head hitting his elbow not his elbow hitting your head.

Of course I would say "Man, I thought I was set...oh well" and chug on down the court.

But instead I'm left with a stinging nose, a curt response, and no understanding of what just transpired.

Doesn't give me much confidence in the official.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by camargue44

REGARDLESS - if it's obvious that a defensive player is elbowed in the face and the referee still believes it was a defensive foul I think it ultimately benefits the official to give some explanation (especially in this instance) because if you're comfortable walking away just saying "you fouled him" you have a player running around the rest of the game thinking it's okay to elbow people in the face.

Giving you an explaination is not going to change anything.

Originally Posted by camargue44

As strange as it may seem if the official said to me: Regardless of it being an elbow to your face because I SAW it as you moving toward him you didn't have LPG so the contact becomes your head hitting his elbow not his elbow hitting your head.

Of course I would say "Man, I thought I was set...oh well" and chug on down the court.

Legal Guarding Position has nothing to do with being set BTW.

Originally Posted by camargue44

But instead I'm left with a stinging nose, a curt response, and no understanding of what just transpired.

Doesn't give me much confidence in the official.

And if you do not want to get hit in the nose or any number of places, do not play basketball. That tends to happen even when the action is legal.

And good officials do not care what you have confidence in. Be lucky you have officials willing to even put up with your crap during some silly rec. league.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by camargue44

REGARDLESS - if it's obvious that a defensive player is elbowed in the face and the referee still believes it was a defensive foul I think it ultimately benefits the official to give some explanation (especially in this instance) because if you're comfortable walking away just saying "you fouled him" you have a player running around the rest of the game thinking it's okay to elbow people in the face.


Doesn't give me much confidence in the official.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Giving you an explaination is not going to change anything.

And if you do not want to get hit in the nose or any number of places, do not play basketball. That tends to happen even when the action is legal.

And good officials do not care what you have confidence in. Be lucky you have officials willing to even put up with your crap during some silly rec. league.

Peace

Rut must be one hell of an official, or he would surely work full time in the public relations field. Cam, the fact is, that some officials cannot even spell "explaination," even when they have spell check.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by camargue44

Haha...I'm fairly certain. For a couple of reasons. Went up for the rebound - he got it - and from the time I came down until the contact occurred - which may have been 5-10 seconds - my feet never moved - I landed in a position that allowed me to defend the outlet pass - the only difference: my arms were outstretched at my sides and perfectly straight.

Evidently, the official disagreed.

[camargue44]

I should have been more specific - "set" meaning: feet firmly planted on the floor, square/facing my opponent. My use of lingo might not be as accurate as your professional peers - I'm still learning.

Secondly, I don't think asking an official in a calm controlled manner, "what did I do?" is "crap" - especially when it's the first thing you've said to any official all game. I've never officiated but I've played at all levels of basketball (except pro obviously) and know it's okay to communicate with officials respectfully. If that wasn't true it would be specifically written into the rules and we'd all run around quietly.

My objective here was to learn if an official HAS TO specify the type of foul being called, "push, hold, block, etc." but I learned that he does NOT have to. Case closed.


Others found this question reasonable and gave reasonable constructive responses - very helpful! I don't know why - but your last set of sentences is so unconstructive I have to respond to at least the last one:

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Be lucky you have officials willing to even put up with your crap during some silly rec. league.

My being lucky and officials being willing has nothing to do with it. I pay to be a member of a competitive league and those fees are used (among other things) to compensate officials - they're not there out of an act of charity. Does this mean I don't have to treat them with respect? Absolutely NOT. However, if you accept money for a service that makes you a professional and you should act like one. If the money isn't too "silly" for you to put in your wallet then the league isn't either.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by camargue44

I should have been more specific - "set" meaning: feet firmly planted on the floor, square/facing my opponent. My use of lingo might not be as accurate as your professional peers - I'm still learning.

Secondly, I don't think asking an official in a calm controlled manner, "what did I do?" is "crap" - especially when it's the first thing you've said to any official all game. I've never officiated but I've played at all levels of basketball (except pro obviously) and know it's okay to communicate with officials respectfully. If that wasn't true it would be specifically written into the rules and we'd all run around quietly.

Here is the thing, an officials does not have to give you an explanation about anything. And you will not find any such directive in mechanics, rules or professional standards. If you want an explanation, you may or may not get one because such explanation is only a courtesy. Honestly if you are always wanted one, many officials will ignore you.

Originally Posted by camargue44

My objective here was to learn if an official HAS TO specify the type of foul being called, "push, hold, block, etc." but I learned that he does NOT have to. Case closed.

Yep.

Originally Posted by camargue44

Others found this question reasonable and gave reasonable constructive responses - very helpful! I don't know why - but your last set of sentences is so unconstructive I have to respond to at least the last one:

No one told you to come here to an officiating board. You not only told people what an official should do, you got testy when people told you that you were wrong. It is really not my concern to care what you find constructive. As I said, be happy that someone even wants to work those games. Because most officials that are worth their salt or have any common sense avoid them for the very reason this conversation illustrates. You feel you are entitled to something that you have no right to. You could have accepted the first responses that were clear you were not owed anything. But as usually a player cannot do that.

Originally Posted by camargue44

My being lucky and officials being willing has nothing to do with it. I pay to be a member of a competitive league and those fees are used (among other things) to compensate officials - they're not their out of an act of charity. Does this mean I don't have to treat them with respect? Absolutely NOT. However, if you accept money for a service that makes you a professional and you should act like one. If the money isn't too "silly" for you to put in your wallet then the league isn't either.

You are right about taking money part, but that also means that we do not have to do things that make you happy. You will not find any reference (ANYWHERE) that requires any official to talk or explain anything to players. Even coaches have some courtesy, but they can lose that real quickly if they act out of turn. Our job as officials is to only call a game. And if you knew anything about most officials, they lose money trying to work games. And if I wanted to make money I would stay two seconds from my house and work little rec and Men's leagues and have to deal with wannabe Jordan or has-beens playing a game as if it is the 7th game of the NBA Finals.

Peace

[camargue44]

Haha. The only thing I could see you construing as being "testy" is #17 which is really a direct response to a question asked. The only "testiness" I see is the use of the word "silly" in reference to someone's activities and questioning someone's physical toughness. I mean come on, really?

Every other one of my posts following my initial question is some form of thanks. And my "telling officials what to do"? More like, this is my expectation - tell me where I'm wrong (read: I'm willing to admit I don't have all the facts!) - that's pretty much my first post summed up.

Now will I bicker over whether I think the call was right? Haha...sure..that was distracting to the main point of the thread - I agree. It is what it is. Nothing to be done now. But don't lump that together with some unrealistic expectation I have for officials to make me happy - I don't. I think my main question was separate and distinct - the actual in game call was merely context.

And your darn right - I didn't HAVE TO come to an officiating board. I came because I often have questions and through reading other threads tonight I've learned a lot: about calls, how games are called, why an official's perspective makes it hard to see all the angles sometimes, etc. This was the best place to ensure that in future games I understand calls being made.

So the next time I don't get an explanation on a call I know there's nothing that says I should - it's only a courtesy. Had I not come here I would have walked around misinformed - certainly, we want players and officials on the same page - more productive environment for all. I also thought this was a better place to have this discussion than during a game.

[just another ref]

Cam, for the record, what is your perception of the quality of the officiating as a whole in your league, and do you know what the officials' qualifications are?

One thing is certain, many officials avoid all rec leagues, regardless of the money, which usually is less than what is paid at the high school level. This is true of all rec leagues, but adult rec leagues are indeed famous for being populated by guys who still think they can play when some never could. A seemingly innocent question such as yours, can easily escalate into a "No, I didn't," "Yes, you did," festival, which is something most officials try hard to avoid.

Having said all this, the law of supply and demand often kicks in. The "job interview" might contain questions like: Have you ever reffed before? Do you have a whistle? What time can you be here? Or even, "Hey, when your game is over, one of you guys wanna call the next one?"

THEN, sometimes when one "real official" shows up and finds out who his partner will be that day, let's just say it can be disheartening.

So, to summarize, if you got hit with an elbow, and you got tagged for the foul, and it was a horrible call, suffice to say, it could be worse.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by camargue44

Haha. The only thing I could see you construing as being "testy" is #17 which is really a direct response to a question asked. The only "testiness" I see is the use of the word "silly" in reference to someone's activities and questioning someone's physical toughness. I mean come on, really?

I almost always find it silly that someone like yourself, has never officiated comes here and tries to debate with people that have officiated about what an official should or should not do. You were given an answer early on and you wanted to debate the issue instead of realizing that what people were telling you was spot on you insisted you had a right to some detailed explanation.

Even if you thought you did not foul the player, the official did so there is not much to debate about that fact. And in your games you are lucky if you get someone that did not buy their shirt from Target in the athletic section. You need to get a little perspective as to who would be at your games. You are not going to get D1 officials or former NBA guys working most of the time.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by camargue44

P.S. We play using Georgia Highschool Rules and I thought it was pretty much a universal that once the elbows come up above shoulder height and are swung (even if no contact is made) that's either a "tech" or some kind of turnover.

Not true.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Excessive swinging is normally viewed as when the elbows swing in a greater arc than the movement of the hips,

Not true.

[Adam]

cam, I'm only going to add two things. 1, I thought your questions were pretty well laid out for a "layman." In spite of the fact that you've played at all levels, you are a layman when it comes to officiating.

2, putting the elbows above his shoulder level means nothing. That's perfectly legal.

3 (math used to be my strong point), it's not the "arc of the hips" that counts. I judge it by whether the torsoe is moving as far as the elbows. That, and swinging the elbows just looks different than pivoting. If I can't tell the difference, he's pivoting.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Cam, for the record, what is your perception of the quality of the officiating as a whole in your league, and do you know what the officials' qualifications are?

One thing is certain, many officials avoid all rec leagues, regardless of the money, which usually is less than what is paid at the high school level. This is true of all rec leagues, but adult rec leagues are indeed famous for being populated by guys who still think they can play when some never could. A seeming innocent question such as yours, can easily escalate into a "No, I didn't," "Yes, you did," festival, which is something most officials try hard to avoid.

Having said all this, the law of supply and demand often kicks in. The "job interview" might contain questions like: Have you ever reffed before? Do you have a whistle? What time can you be here? Or even, "Hey, when your game is over, one of you guys wanna call the next one?"

THEN, sometimes when one "real official" shows up and finds out who his partner will be that day, let's just say it can be disheartening.

So, to summarize, if you got hit with an elbow, and you got tagged for the foul, and it was a horrible call, suffice to say, it could be worse.

I wouldn't work an adult rec league if the league begged and offered 3X their normal rate. Not only do I have to deal with the players, I have to deal with partners who I wouldn't hire to work middle school games try to handle a bunch of whiny adults. I'll stay home, thanks.

I work HS varsity games (and I'll fill in at the JV level once in a great while if I'm asked to by a school that's treated me well in the past) and that's it. I know I'm not the only one who does this -- many of my regular partners do, too.

[camargue44]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

.

And in your games you are lucky if you get someone that did not buy their shirt from Target in the athletic section.

I'm perfectly happy with the insight everyone provided. Unfortunately, I think you could be right. I wish there was a quick and easy way to know if those who officiate our league have some training. If the situation is that which you just described I and my money would go elsewhere - still understanding that as you said, my chances are slim to none that I'll get someone with D1, NBA, maybe even high school level experience.

[Adam]

I've done rec leagues, and I can tell you if you had officials with the proper uniform (even if they were wearing shorts), you are doing well. You could always talk to the folks who run the league and ask them where they get the officials.

One more thought, you could always go one step further and figure out who to contact to start officiating some ball.