Conduct: Both Players and Officials

[mick]

camargue44,
You are not asking too much from the official.
Please find the justification of your request below.

---

From 2008-09 Points of Emphasis

5. OFFICIALS’ MECHANICS AND SIGNALS.

Communication and consistency

remain the most important elements of good officiating. It is essential for officials
to be familiar and comfortable with proper NFHS officiating mechanics and
signals. The primary reasons for utilizing only approved NFHS mechanics and
signals are:
• Effective court coverage related to Primary Coverage Areas.
• Effective communication between officiating partner(s).
• Provide immediate information and feedback to coaches, players, scorers,
timers and fans.

Signals are used to communicate and should never be used to call attention
to the official. The majority of signals are used to indicate what has or is
happening. Approved NFHS signals are dignified, informative and meaningful.
The use of unauthorized signals frequently confuses, because the meaning is
unknown. Problems are also created when officials engage in “hit and run”
officiating. This occurs when an official blows the whistle and immediately leaves the area without taking the time to follow the proper procedures for calling the foul or violation. Signals should be given in a manner that is calm, under control, unhurried and professional.

[williebfree]

Originally Posted by mick

---

From 2008-09 Points of Emphasis

5. OFFICIALS’ MECHANICS AND SIGNALS.

Communication and consistency remain the most important elements of good officiating. It is essential for officials to be familiar and comfortable with proper NFHS officiating mechanics and signals. The primary reasons for utilizing only approved NFHS mechanics and signals are:

• Effective court coverage related to Primary Coverage Areas.
• Effective communication between officiating partner(s).
• Provide immediate information and feedback to coaches, players, scorers, timers and fans.

Signals are used to communicate and should never be used to call attention to the official. The majority of signals are used to indicate what has or is happening. Approved NFHS signals are dignified, informative and meaningful. The use of unauthorized signals frequently confuses, because the meaning is unknown. Problems are also created when officials engage in “hit and run” officiating. This occurs when an official blows the whistle and immediately leaves the area without taking the time to follow the proper procedures for calling the foul or violation. Signals should be given in a manner that is calm, under control, unhurried and professional.

Nice post Mick!

Let me start this with ---- Yes, it is tiresome to hear whiny gripes, but we have tools to deal with this if it becomes excessive. But when asked respectfully we should offer "professional" explanations.

I want to focus on officials who appear in a rush (or fearful to explain their call and expose their genuine lack of rules knowledge). They also appear agitated if they are asked legitimate questions from coaches or players. It doesn't take much to clarify your ruling for a coach or player, IF you can efficient respond with the criteria used to make the call.

In regards to the OP, the official may have observed that B1 was not in a LGP, because he was moving into A1 causing displacement. If he offered a brief summarization of this to the player (camargue44) he would have understood the call and hopefully improved his understanding of the rules.

Nonetheless, confident officials with comprehensive rules knowledge, and clear, concise communication can keep things flowing smoothly. Those who are lacking these attributes are a liability to their partner. If both are lacking it can become an ugly scene.

[BktBallRef]

Have you considered the possibility that you were moving into the opponent and just didn't realize it?

I wish I had a dollar for ever player that's ever said, "I didn't touch him."

[camargue44]

Haha...I'm fairly certain. For a couple of reasons. Went up for the rebound - he got it - and from the time I came down until the contact occurred - which may have been 5-10 seconds - my feet never moved - I landed in a position that allowed me to defend the outlet pass - the only difference: my arms were outstretched at my sides and perfectly straight.

We were both upright - no one leaning over another. I definitely "touched" him but the contact occurred when his elbow contacted my face in a sideways swinging motion out from his body - bare in mind that I was at least 3" taller than the offensive player so to contact my face (I'm not bent over at all) his elbows would have to be above his shoulder level.

REGARDLESS - if it's obvious that a defensive player is elbowed in the face and the referee still believes it was a defensive foul I think it ultimately benefits the official to give some explanation (especially in this instance) because if you're comfortable walking away just saying "you fouled him" you have a player running around the rest of the game thinking it's okay to elbow people in the face.

As strange as it may seem if the official said to me: Regardless of it being an elbow to your face because I SAW it as you moving toward him you didn't have LPG so the contact becomes your head hitting his elbow not his elbow hitting your head.

Of course I would say "Man, I thought I was set...oh well" and chug on down the court.

But instead I'm left with a stinging nose, a curt response, and no understanding of what just transpired.

Doesn't give me much confidence in the official.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by camargue44

REGARDLESS - if it's obvious that a defensive player is elbowed in the face and the referee still believes it was a defensive foul I think it ultimately benefits the official to give some explanation (especially in this instance) because if you're comfortable walking away just saying "you fouled him" you have a player running around the rest of the game thinking it's okay to elbow people in the face.

Giving you an explaination is not going to change anything.

Originally Posted by camargue44

As strange as it may seem if the official said to me: Regardless of it being an elbow to your face because I SAW it as you moving toward him you didn't have LPG so the contact becomes your head hitting his elbow not his elbow hitting your head.

Of course I would say "Man, I thought I was set...oh well" and chug on down the court.

Legal Guarding Position has nothing to do with being set BTW.

Originally Posted by camargue44

But instead I'm left with a stinging nose, a curt response, and no understanding of what just transpired.

Doesn't give me much confidence in the official.

And if you do not want to get hit in the nose or any number of places, do not play basketball. That tends to happen even when the action is legal.

And good officials do not care what you have confidence in. Be lucky you have officials willing to even put up with your crap during some silly rec. league.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by camargue44

REGARDLESS - if it's obvious that a defensive player is elbowed in the face and the referee still believes it was a defensive foul I think it ultimately benefits the official to give some explanation (especially in this instance) because if you're comfortable walking away just saying "you fouled him" you have a player running around the rest of the game thinking it's okay to elbow people in the face.


Doesn't give me much confidence in the official.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Giving you an explaination is not going to change anything.

And if you do not want to get hit in the nose or any number of places, do not play basketball. That tends to happen even when the action is legal.

And good officials do not care what you have confidence in. Be lucky you have officials willing to even put up with your crap during some silly rec. league.

Peace

Rut must be one hell of an official, or he would surely work full time in the public relations field. Cam, the fact is, that some officials cannot even spell "explaination," even when they have spell check.

[camargue44]

I should have been more specific - "set" meaning: feet firmly planted on the floor, square/facing my opponent. My use of lingo might not be as accurate as your professional peers - I'm still learning.

Secondly, I don't think asking an official in a calm controlled manner, "what did I do?" is "crap" - especially when it's the first thing you've said to any official all game. I've never officiated but I've played at all levels of basketball (except pro obviously) and know it's okay to communicate with officials respectfully. If that wasn't true it would be specifically written into the rules and we'd all run around quietly.

My objective here was to learn if an official HAS TO specify the type of foul being called, "push, hold, block, etc." but I learned that he does NOT have to. Case closed.


Others found this question reasonable and gave reasonable constructive responses - very helpful! I don't know why - but your last set of sentences is so unconstructive I have to respond to at least the last one:

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Be lucky you have officials willing to even put up with your crap during some silly rec. league.

My being lucky and officials being willing has nothing to do with it. I pay to be a member of a competitive league and those fees are used (among other things) to compensate officials - they're not there out of an act of charity. Does this mean I don't have to treat them with respect? Absolutely NOT. However, if you accept money for a service that makes you a professional and you should act like one. If the money isn't too "silly" for you to put in your wallet then the league isn't either.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by camargue44

I should have been more specific - "set" meaning: feet firmly planted on the floor, square/facing my opponent. My use of lingo might not be as accurate as your professional peers - I'm still learning.

Secondly, I don't think asking an official in a calm controlled manner, "what did I do?" is "crap" - especially when it's the first thing you've said to any official all game. I've never officiated but I've played at all levels of basketball (except pro obviously) and know it's okay to communicate with officials respectfully. If that wasn't true it would be specifically written into the rules and we'd all run around quietly.

Here is the thing, an officials does not have to give you an explanation about anything. And you will not find any such directive in mechanics, rules or professional standards. If you want an explanation, you may or may not get one because such explanation is only a courtesy. Honestly if you are always wanted one, many officials will ignore you.

Originally Posted by camargue44

My objective here was to learn if an official HAS TO specify the type of foul being called, "push, hold, block, etc." but I learned that he does NOT have to. Case closed.

Yep.

Originally Posted by camargue44

Others found this question reasonable and gave reasonable constructive responses - very helpful! I don't know why - but your last set of sentences is so unconstructive I have to respond to at least the last one:

No one told you to come here to an officiating board. You not only told people what an official should do, you got testy when people told you that you were wrong. It is really not my concern to care what you find constructive. As I said, be happy that someone even wants to work those games. Because most officials that are worth their salt or have any common sense avoid them for the very reason this conversation illustrates. You feel you are entitled to something that you have no right to. You could have accepted the first responses that were clear you were not owed anything. But as usually a player cannot do that.

Originally Posted by camargue44

My being lucky and officials being willing has nothing to do with it. I pay to be a member of a competitive league and those fees are used (among other things) to compensate officials - they're not their out of an act of charity. Does this mean I don't have to treat them with respect? Absolutely NOT. However, if you accept money for a service that makes you a professional and you should act like one. If the money isn't too "silly" for you to put in your wallet then the league isn't either.

You are right about taking money part, but that also means that we do not have to do things that make you happy. You will not find any reference (ANYWHERE) that requires any official to talk or explain anything to players. Even coaches have some courtesy, but they can lose that real quickly if they act out of turn. Our job as officials is to only call a game. And if you knew anything about most officials, they lose money trying to work games. And if I wanted to make money I would stay two seconds from my house and work little rec and Men's leagues and have to deal with wannabe Jordan or has-beens playing a game as if it is the 7th game of the NBA Finals.

Peace

[Shades of Gray]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Giving you an explaination is not going to change anything.








And if you do not want to get hit in the nose or any number of places, do not play basketball. That tends to happen even when the action is legal.

Be lucky you have officials willing to even put up with your crap during some silly rec. league.

Peace

Unbelievable that on occasion players and coaches think that some referees have an attitude. With cooperation like this to a guy who comes on the board with an honest question, this problem should be solved any day now.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Shades of Gray

Unbelievable that on occasion players and coaches think that some referees have an attitude. With cooperation like this to a guy who comes on the board with an honest question, this problem should be solved any day now.

You must misunderstand the role of players. Their job is to play, not have a running debate with officials every time they think something did not go their way. And if I cared (or anyone cared) every time something we called what a player thought, we would change calls all the time. The last time I checked, players never foul and officials only call them for foul improperly. Either you do not understand how this world works or you are incredibly naive.

Peace

[bbcoach7]

Originally Posted by Shades of Gray

Unbelievable that on occasion players and coaches think that some referees have an attitude. With cooperation like this to a guy who comes on the board with an honest question, this problem should be solved any day now.

The original question is in part based on an incorrect assumption. There is no rule against a player raising their elbows above their shoulders while in possession of the basketball. When a player "rips" the ball overhead to get the ball on the other side of their body, their elbows go above their shoulders. Same as when a player holds the ball over their head to pass. The shooting motion requires the elbows to be raised above the shoulders.

I don't believe the case is so much that some referee's have an attitude, as it is more the case that everyone including sports officials have individual personalities. Some have pleasant dispositions, and some don't. Some don't have a lot of patience, especially in their house, which this sort of is.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by camargue44

Haha...I'm fairly certain. For a couple of reasons. Went up for the rebound - he got it - and from the time I came down until the contact occurred - which may have been 5-10 seconds - my feet never moved - I landed in a position that allowed me to defend the outlet pass - the only difference: my arms were outstretched at my sides and perfectly straight.

Evidently, the official disagreed.

[bbcoach7]

My only input is some technique. Hubie Brown teaches this, and everything Hubie teaches works...

Instead of arms held straight up and parallal to eachother, cross your arms at the wrists or slightly below, and spread your fingers out to better deflect and block vision. Put your X'd arms up in the outlet passers vision just like you would with parallal arms raised. The best thing about this technique is the elbow can't reach your face. Try it- have someone "chin" a basketball right in front of you, assume the X arms position and have them pivot & swing. Do it slowly with control so no one gets hurt. There elbows will still impact your forearms and/or wrists, but not your nose.

If they are real aggressive and try to throw the outlet over & through your hands, protect your fingers by making fists.

[bbcoach7]

I'm a HS coach and I don't feel that a referee ever owes me an explanation about a call. Coaches coach, players play, and referees make the calls.

If I were to recieve an explanation that would mean the game is actually delayed a little each time. If now the referee is offering explanations for calls whenever asked, the game is going to become slowed down by interruptions.

It's been my experience that when the clock is stopped at quarters, or half, or full time outs, if I begin with, "Can I ask a question..." and then ask a reasonable question in a non provoking manner, I always get a real answer. It might not be the answer I want to hear, but it's a real answer.