Singler Elbow to Hansbrough's Jaw

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

I agree with you assessment that incidental contact should be ignored; I do not think that the elbow was incidental. But a common foul (such as a slap on the arm that neither intentional or flagrant) during a dead ball is still an intentional technical foul; do we agree?

(The below ignores the "airborne shooter" possibility since it's not relevant to the play.)

Your terms are very confusing. You can't have a "common foul" during a dead ball.

Contact during a dead ball is IGNORED unless it's intentional or flagrant. Then, it's either an IT or FT foul.

Your "slap on the arm" would most likely be ignored. (I'm talking about the rule; as officials we might address the situation without calling a foul.)

[dahoopref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

(The below ignores the "airborne shooter" possibility since it's not relevant to the play.)

Your terms are very confusing. You can't have a "common foul" during a dead ball.

Contact during a dead ball is IGNORED unless it's intentional or flagrant. Then, it's either an IT or FT foul.

Your "slap on the arm" would most likely be ignored. (I'm talking about the rule; as officials we might address the situation without calling a foul.)

A jump ball is called where Team A gets the AP. About a second after the whistle is blown while A1 is holding the ball, B1 attempts to knock the ball out of A1's hands but slaps A1's arm.

With all due respect, I am sorry but I am not going to ignore this contact.

If this type of action/foul happened during a live ball, it would be a common foul (since the contact was neither intentional or flagrant). But since this occurred during a dead ball (whistle blown for the jump ball), it would be penalized as a intentional technical.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

A jump ball is called where Team A gets the AP. About a second after the whistle is blown while A1 is holding the ball, B1 attempts to knock the ball out of A1's hands but slaps A1's arm.

With all due respect, I am sorry but I am not going to ignore this contact.

If this type of action/foul happened during a live ball, it would be a common foul (since the contact was neither intentional or flagrant). But since this occurred during a dead ball (whistle blown for the jump ball), it would be penalized as a intentional technical.

If it wasn't intentional/flagrant when the ball was live, why would be intentional/flagrant when the ball is dead?

-Josh

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by jdmara

If it wasn't intentional/flagrant when the ball was live, why would be intentional/flagrant when the ball is dead?

-Josh

Call it an unsportsmanlike foul if you like. Either way, it should be a T.

[dahoopref]

Originally Posted by jdmara

If it wasn't intentional/flagrant when the ball was live, why would be intentional/flagrant when the ball is dead?

-Josh

Because it is by definition:

2008-09 NCAA Rulebook

Pg 73 Rule 4 Art 3

g. (Men) Intentional technical foul. An intentional technical foul
involves intentionally contacting an opponent in an excessive nonflagrant
manner when the ball is dead.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

A jump ball is called where Team A gets the AP. About a second after the whistle is blown while A1 is holding the ball, B1 attempts to knock the ball out of A1's hands but slaps A1's arm.

With all due respect, I am sorry but I am not going to ignore this contact.

If this type of action/foul happened during a live ball, it would be a common foul (since the contact was neither intentional or flagrant). But since this occurred during a dead ball (whistle blown for the jump ball), it would be penalized as a intentional technical.

Originally Posted by jdmara

If it wasn't intentional/flagrant when the ball was live, why would be intentional/flagrant when the ball is dead?

-Josh

Originally Posted by dahoopref

Because it is by definition:

2008-09 NCAA Rulebook

Pg 73 Rule 4 Art 3

g. (Men) Intentional technical foul. An intentional technical foul
involves intentionally contacting an opponent in an excessive nonflagrant
manner when the ball is dead.

So if it's not excessive during live ball play, why would be be excessive during a dead ball?

-Josh

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

A jump ball is called where Team A gets the AP. About a second after the whistle is blown while A1 is holding the ball, B1 attempts to knock the ball out of A1's hands but slaps A1's arm.

With all due respect, I am sorry but I am not going to ignore this contact.

If this type of action/foul happened during a live ball, it would be a common foul (since the contact was neither intentional or flagrant). But since this occurred during a dead ball (whistle blown for the jump ball), it would be penalized as a intentional technical.

If you're not going to call the slap on the arm an INT or FLAG foul during a live ball, why would you do it during a dead ball?

[dahoopref]

Originally Posted by jdmara

So if it's not excessive during live ball play, why would be be excessive during a dead ball?

-Josh

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

If you're not going to call the slap on the arm an INT or FLAG foul during a live ball, why would you do it during a dead ball?

Because by definition, a contact foul that is not flagrant during a dead ball is considered an intentional technical foul.

PLEASE read pg 152 in the NCAA 2008-09 rulebook.

Foul Name: (Men) Intentional Technical Foul
Ball Status: Dead
Description: Contact with opponent in non-flagrant manner
Penalty: Two Free Throws
Charged to: Offending player
Resumption of play: Throw-in to offended team at division line.
Count toward DQ?: Yes
Count for bonus?: Yes
Count toward Ejection?: Yes, one of two CLASS A (AA) technicals or in combination with two CLASS B technicals (ABB).

Any more questions?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

Because by definition, a contact foul that is not flagrant during a dead ball is considered an intentional technical foul.

PLEASE read pg 152 in the NCAA 2008-09 rulebook.

Foul Name: (Men) Intentional Technical Foul
Ball Status: Dead
Description: Contact with opponent in non-flagrant manner
Penalty: Two Free Throws
Charged to: Offending player
Resumption of play: Throw-in to offended team at division line.
Count toward DQ?: Yes
Count for bonus?: Yes
Count toward Ejection?: Yes, one of two CLASS A (AA) technicals or in combination with two CLASS B technicals (ABB).

Any more questions?

So you're saying that ALL contact during a dead ball is a foul.

Okay. Good luck with that.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

So you're saying that ALL contact during a dead ball is a foul.

Okay. Good luck with that.

BBRef-

I guess the best part about the internet is that we are all learning. I'm learning more and more that some people choose not to learn. Anytime you want to partner up, let me know

-Josh

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by jdmara

BBRef-

I guess the best part about the internet is that we are all learning. I'm learning more and more that some people choose not to learn. Anytime you want to partner up, let me know

-Josh

Most are learning. Others are stubborn.

Text me, we'll hook up for a game.

[dahoopref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

So you're saying that ALL contact during a dead ball is a foul.

Okay. Good luck with that.

No, contact that is deemed a foul during a dead ball is an intentional technical foul.

Please show me where I said all contact during a dead ball is a foul?

[BktBallRef]

Exactly. That's what we've been trying to tell you.

Yet, you still say a little bump or slap on the arm immediately after a whistle is an intentional foul?

Again, good luck.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

A jump ball is called where Team A gets the AP. About a second after the whistle is blown while A1 is holding the ball, B1 attempts to knock the ball out of A1's hands but slaps A1's arm.

With all due respect, I am sorry but I am not going to ignore this contact.

If this type of action/foul happened during a live ball, it would be a common foul (since the contact was neither intentional or flagrant). But since this occurred during a dead ball (whistle blown for the jump ball), it would be penalized as a intentional technical.

You can do what you wish, but what you suggest is in direct opposition to the rules and to how most (I'll go with 99.5%) other officials would call this.