Singler Elbow to Hansbrough's Jaw

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

A jump ball is called where Team A gets the AP. About a second after the whistle is blown while A1 is holding the ball, B1 attempts to knock the ball out of A1's hands but slaps A1's arm.

With all due respect, I am sorry but I am not going to ignore this contact.

If this type of action/foul happened during a live ball, it would be a common foul (since the contact was neither intentional or flagrant). But since this occurred during a dead ball (whistle blown for the jump ball), it would be penalized as a intentional technical.

If you're not going to call the slap on the arm an INT or FLAG foul during a live ball, why would you do it during a dead ball?

[dahoopref]

Originally Posted by jdmara

So if it's not excessive during live ball play, why would be be excessive during a dead ball?

-Josh

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

If you're not going to call the slap on the arm an INT or FLAG foul during a live ball, why would you do it during a dead ball?

Because by definition, a contact foul that is not flagrant during a dead ball is considered an intentional technical foul.

PLEASE read pg 152 in the NCAA 2008-09 rulebook.

Foul Name: (Men) Intentional Technical Foul
Ball Status: Dead
Description: Contact with opponent in non-flagrant manner
Penalty: Two Free Throws
Charged to: Offending player
Resumption of play: Throw-in to offended team at division line.
Count toward DQ?: Yes
Count for bonus?: Yes
Count toward Ejection?: Yes, one of two CLASS A (AA) technicals or in combination with two CLASS B technicals (ABB).

Any more questions?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

Because by definition, a contact foul that is not flagrant during a dead ball is considered an intentional technical foul.

PLEASE read pg 152 in the NCAA 2008-09 rulebook.

Foul Name: (Men) Intentional Technical Foul
Ball Status: Dead
Description: Contact with opponent in non-flagrant manner
Penalty: Two Free Throws
Charged to: Offending player
Resumption of play: Throw-in to offended team at division line.
Count toward DQ?: Yes
Count for bonus?: Yes
Count toward Ejection?: Yes, one of two CLASS A (AA) technicals or in combination with two CLASS B technicals (ABB).

Any more questions?

So you're saying that ALL contact during a dead ball is a foul.

Okay. Good luck with that.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

So you're saying that ALL contact during a dead ball is a foul.

Okay. Good luck with that.

BBRef-

I guess the best part about the internet is that we are all learning. I'm learning more and more that some people choose not to learn. Anytime you want to partner up, let me know

-Josh

[dahoopref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

So you're saying that ALL contact during a dead ball is a foul.

Okay. Good luck with that.

No, contact that is deemed a foul during a dead ball is an intentional technical foul.

Please show me where I said all contact during a dead ball is a foul?

[BktBallRef]

Exactly. That's what we've been trying to tell you.

Yet, you still say a little bump or slap on the arm immediately after a whistle is an intentional foul?

Again, good luck.

[dahoopref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Exactly. That's what we've been trying to tell you.

Yet, you still say a little bump or slap on the arm immediately after a whistle is an intentional foul?

Again, good luck.

If the contact was enough to be a foul, by definition it would be called an intentional technical foul.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

If the contact was enough to be a foul, by definition it would be called an intentional technical foul.

No, not really.

As far as Fed goes, it says the contact must be intentional or flagrant to be called a foul, otherwise it is ignored. (With the airborne shooter exception) This is implying that there are times when there might be contact during a dead ball that would be a common foul if the ball were live, but it should be ignored during a dead ball if it wouldn't be intentional when the ball is live.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by jdmara

BBRef-

I guess the best part about the internet is that we are all learning. I'm learning more and more that some people choose not to learn. Anytime you want to partner up, let me know

-Josh

Most are learning. Others are stubborn.

Text me, we'll hook up for a game.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

A jump ball is called where Team A gets the AP. About a second after the whistle is blown while A1 is holding the ball, B1 attempts to knock the ball out of A1's hands but slaps A1's arm.

With all due respect, I am sorry but I am not going to ignore this contact.

If this type of action/foul happened during a live ball, it would be a common foul (since the contact was neither intentional or flagrant). But since this occurred during a dead ball (whistle blown for the jump ball), it would be penalized as a intentional technical.

You can do what you wish, but what you suggest is in direct opposition to the rules and to how most (I'll go with 99.5%) other officials would call this.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by eyezen

I agree, I guess the answer could be they flat out kicked it all around. Unless someone close to the situation has any insight, we'll probably never know.

I think it's obvious they kicked it. I've emailed an ACC observer and await his response but I think the rules are clear.

Think about it this way.

An intentional personal foul results in two FTs and the ball.

Why would an intentional technical foul result in two shots but not give the ball to the offended team?

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Most are learning. Others are stubborn.

Text me, we'll hook up for a game.

This I know...I'll let you know about some games. I need a little vacation, so why not to NC

-Josh

[CallMeMrRef]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

I think it's obvious they kicked it. I've emailed an ACC observer and await his response but I think the rules are clear.

Heard on the grapevine that there was disagreement among the officials as to the proper treatment and you can see confusion when they were about to bring the ball inbounds - originally looks like one of them was going to take it in on the baseline then moved to half court. By that point, Duke was lining up to take it in - rather than drag it out any further the official who knew the right way rolled with it....

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by CallMeMrRef

Heard on the grapevine that there was disagreement among the officials as to the proper treatment and you can see confusion when they were about to bring the ball inbounds - originally looks like one of them was going to take it in on the baseline then moved to half court. By that point, Duke was lining up to take it in - rather than drag it out any further the official who knew the right way rolled with it....

That's interesting. 2 Final Four officials and a 3rd who is a D2 conference supervisor. If those 3 can't come to a consesus on the right thing to do no wonder we have so many arguments in this forum.

[OHBBREF]

If that is the case - then I would imagine that there will be loss of game(s) or game fees involved because you just can not kick a rule like that with out some consequences