Singler Elbow to Hansbrough's Jaw

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

I agree with you assessment that incidental contact should be ignored; I do not think that the elbow was incidental. But a common foul (such as a slap on the arm that neither intentional or flagrant) during a dead ball is still an intentional technical foul; do we agree?

(The below ignores the "airborne shooter" possibility since it's not relevant to the play.)

Your terms are very confusing. You can't have a "common foul" during a dead ball.

Contact during a dead ball is IGNORED unless it's intentional or flagrant. Then, it's either an IT or FT foul.

Your "slap on the arm" would most likely be ignored. (I'm talking about the rule; as officials we might address the situation without calling a foul.)

[dahoopref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

(The below ignores the "airborne shooter" possibility since it's not relevant to the play.)

Your terms are very confusing. You can't have a "common foul" during a dead ball.

Contact during a dead ball is IGNORED unless it's intentional or flagrant. Then, it's either an IT or FT foul.

Your "slap on the arm" would most likely be ignored. (I'm talking about the rule; as officials we might address the situation without calling a foul.)

A jump ball is called where Team A gets the AP. About a second after the whistle is blown while A1 is holding the ball, B1 attempts to knock the ball out of A1's hands but slaps A1's arm.

With all due respect, I am sorry but I am not going to ignore this contact.

If this type of action/foul happened during a live ball, it would be a common foul (since the contact was neither intentional or flagrant). But since this occurred during a dead ball (whistle blown for the jump ball), it would be penalized as a intentional technical.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

I agree with you assessment that incidental contact should be ignored; I do not think that the elbow was incidental. But a common foul (such as a slap on the arm that neither intentional or flagrant) during a dead ball is still an intentional technical foul; do we agree?

No. For dead ball contact to be called, it must be either intentional of flagrant.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

I agree with you assessment that incidental contact should be ignored; I do not think that the elbow was incidental. But a common foul (such as a slap on the arm that neither intentional or flagrant) during a dead ball is still an intentional technical foul; do we agree?

The elbow was anything but incidental. It was properly called a technical foul since the ball was dead following the call for a held ball. Since the contact was "intentional or flagrant" it should be penalized by a Technical Foul (under NFHS rules).

But a slap on the arm or other non-intentional, non-flagrant contact is to be ignored under such circumstances. Therefore, no, a technical foul should not be called for non-intentional, non-flagrant contact -- it is to be ignored.

[OHBBREF]

The play by play sheet has this transpiring as a steal by Singler and then a Technical on Singler.
There is not listing other than technical So the only way that I see this would be they called a T non- intentional - and gave the ball to Duke at POI but I still have not seen the play will look tonight.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

What you have here is an Intentional Technical foul.

The ball is dead due to the ruling of the jump ball. When a contact foul is made when the ball is dead, it is automatically an "intentional technical foul." It does not matter if the officials ruled the foul accidental or not. 2 shots for the offended team and they get the ball at the half-court. There is no POI in this situation.

1. No. It could be a flagrant T. And not all contact when the ball is dead is a foul (ignored if not flagrant or intentional).

2. If the contact was "accidental" in the sense of not intentional or flagrant, then it does matter: don't call the foul.

3. There is always a POI on every whistle, though it is not always relevant to how to put the ball back in play.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

I'm just wondering why the officials didn't go to the monitor to confirm the elbow (which I'm sure the C saw). It was my understanding that any punch/elbow needed to be review with a monitor to make sure it wasn't thrown intentionally.

For NCAA Men only they can go to the monitor to determine if a called foul is flagrant. They do not have to go -

In NCAA women it a punch is thrown/ or an action could possibly be a fight you must go to the monitor to make that determination but you may not up grade a foul that has been called to flagrant.

[dahoopref]

I'm just wondering why the officials didn't go to the monitor to confirm the elbow (which I'm sure the C saw). It was my understanding that any punch/elbow needed to be review with a monitor to make sure it wasn't thrown intentionally.

I remember a case where an official ejected a player where he thought the player threw a punch. He did not review the play on the monitor. The replay showed that the player did not throw a punch and was unjustly ejected. A memo from that conference came down that all possible punches/elbows were to be reviewed. Unfortunately the official who ejected the player was suspended for one game.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Spence

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUFeSOjYfdU

If the elbow to Hansbrough was deemed accidental should it be a T?

I can't view YouTube at work. But Singler did receive an Intentional Technical foul last night and NC took the ball out at half court. Was this the play or a different one? I wasn't paying close attention to the TV but wasn't Singler's T after some kind of scrum for a loose ball?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I can't view YouTube at work. But Singler did receive an Intentional Technical foul last night and NC took the ball out at half court. Was this the play or a different one? I wasn't paying close attention to the TV but wasn't Singler's T after some kind of scrum for a loose ball?

Carolina did NOT get the ball after the T.

Duke got the ball at the division line.

I hope someone can explain why because it made no sense to me.

[bigda65]

BB ref is correct. The ball was given to Duke at the division line, tableside (I believe).

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Carolina did NOT get the ball after the T.

Duke got the ball at the division line.

I hope someone can explain why because it made no sense to me.

Because the play was blown dead on the jump ball, they went to the AP arrow.

-Josh

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Carolina did NOT get the ball after the T.

Duke got the ball at the division line.

I hope someone can explain why because it made no sense to me.

I believe it's because they go to POI in NCAA after a technical.

Edit: jdmara just clarified.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zm1283

I believe it's because they go to POI in NCAA after a technical.

Edit: jdmara just clarified.

Not on a dead ball intentional contact Technical. This is the only Men's T given where you put the ball at the division line. I will have to look this up and confirm, but this T should not be a POI administration.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Carolina did NOT get the ball after the T.

Duke got the ball at the division line.

I hope someone can explain why because it made no sense to me.

Oh, must have heard the info wrong. A D-League buddy of mine called to asked what happened on the play b/c he couldn't figure out what was going on either.

In the closed thread Bob said the admin seemed correct. But I don't see how it can be correct if a dead ball foul of some type was called on Singler that involved contact.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Not on a dead ball intentional contact Technical. This is the only Men's T given where you put the ball at the division line. I will have to look this up and confirm, but this T should not be a POI administration.

Peace

You are correct, no need to look it up. A couple years ago there were False Double Fouls in the BC/Duke game that involved a taunting T against A1 followed up by a Intentional Contact Technical against B1. After administration Team A received the ball at the division line as a result of the foul against B1.