Big Man Penalized by REFS?????

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Originally Posted by harmbu

That was the title on a high school sports message board. Here is what the coach had to say:

I have watched many talented basketball players over the years,and have been eye witness to state championship runs. My teams haven't had athletically gifted big men until this year, noramlly very talented shooting guards. With all of the hype surrounding this player I'm sure that opponents come into the game with one thing in mind and that is to push him around try to out work him, great I get that and it's fine that the REFS allow that. HOWEVER, why when he pushes back is everything a foul? The paint is a Jungle!! Survival of the fittest, fight for position underneath go up strong finish, repeat. It appears to me that every event I attend my D-1 recruit is held to a higher standard a "nicer" version of what life on the inside is like no contact position yourself without touching, don't post, up fade away always. Just ranting-but does anyone else see this also???


Here is how I responded:

Maybe you should survey the coaches and fans of the teams you play against. I bet you will hear them say that you big guy gets all of the calls and gets away with physical play just because he is a star player. It often goes both ways.

Here is what the coach had to say:

I'm objective enough to see both sides of this arguement and there have been 2 games during this season were that could be true (2). The rest of the time even at home, no wait, ESPECIALLY at HOME he is abused by the officiating crews religiously. He just doesn't get to play physical and there has been times when it has taken him mentally out of the game, to the point he will just about quit because he feels that he can't even sneeze without getting a whistle.

Does anybody here think what college coaches will think about "my D-1 recruit" who "will just about quit because he feels that he can't even sneeze without getting a whistle"?

I always taught my players to adjust to the officials, because they won't adjust to you. It's not hard to find out, early in a game, how it is going to be called and play accordingly.

[grunewar]

Sounds like the same "problem" Shaq had in HS and college.......

[deecee]

Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

I always taught my players to adjust to the officials, because they won't adjust to you. It's not hard to find out, early in a game, how it is going to be called and play accordingly.

Its tough to adjust when you have to have everything your way. Thats the growing attitude with many players. Good coaches are content and happy with consistency. Bad coaches dont know wtf they are doing. Pain the a$$ coaches can fall into either of the previous 2 categories, however their lack of objectivity clouds their judgement. Guess which category MOST coaches fall into.

[OHBBREF]

I don't see a crying face to insert here.

Physical play is a point of emphasis and has been for years, so if your big man being physical it is going to be called, and if they are pushing yor big man around it should be called, however coach, there is something called advantage/disadvantage, their big men probably aren't really pushing your guy around enough to make a difference and your guy is.
Teach him footwork and balance and all of the skills that he will need to advance the next level they can teach him how to be more physical at that level.

[SmokeEater]

My personal Pet Peeve is this concept that the Bigs can take more physical play and usually do. To me its BS if the call would be made on a guard then it should be made on a post. I can't tell you how frustrating it was when I played (many moons ago I might add) to work so hard for position get a nice pass and get knocked around with no call.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

My personal Pet Peeve is this concept that the Bigs can take more physical play and usually do. To me its BS if the call would be made on a guard then it should be made on a post. I can't tell you how frustrating it was when I played (many moons ago I might add) to work so hard for position get a nice pass and get knocked around with no call.

The reality is they can. And if someone runs into them and bounces off, that is not going to get the same reaction from as it would in other situations.

That being said, they should be allowed to play in their space and if they are put at a disadvantage, then something should be called in their favor. But big guys often like to push and grab until they learn how to use their size instead of just get an advantage from illegally. This sounds like the problem with the coach not knowing how to teach his player properly.

Peace

[SmokeEater]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The reality is they can. And if someone runs into them and bounces off, that is not going to get the same reaction from as it would in other situations.

That being said, they should be allowed to play in their space and if they are put at a disadvantage, then something should be called in their favor. But big guys often like to push and grab until they learn how to use their size instead of just get an advantage from illegally. This sounds like the problem with the coach not knowing how to teach his player properly.

Peace

I know your not saying this but here is what it sounds like.

"I will officiate to the reactions contact gets from others."

CMHCoachNRef pretty much summed up my opinon also.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

I know your not saying this but here is what it sounds like.

"I will officiate to the reactions contact gets from others."

If a player is not put at a disadvantage, it is not a foul. That is what the rules say. And if someone runs into you and you do not move, you are not put at a disadvantage in my opinion. So yes, the reaction to contact does apply. It should apply or you cannot call a foul.

Peace

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

My personal Pet Peeve is this concept that the Bigs can take more physical play and usually do. To me its BS if the call would be made on a guard then it should be made on a post. I can't tell you how frustrating it was when I played (many moons ago I might add) to work so hard for position get a nice pass and get knocked around with no call.

Agreed. It drives me nuts when a smaller player is allowed to use hips and shoulders to move bigger players with position around, and then some little bump by the bigger player is called a foul because he/she is bigger. Can't stand it when I'm on the court, can't stand it when I'm watching.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

My personal Pet Peeve is this concept that the Bigs can take more physical play and usually do. To me its BS if the call would be made on a guard then it should be made on a post. I can't tell you how frustrating it was when I played (many moons ago I might add) to work so hard for position get a nice pass and get knocked around with no call.

Situation A: Big Man has position in the paint. Small point guard goes in for a layup. Contact squarely in the chest. Big man doesn't move. Small point guard bounces off of him. No call.

Situation B: Small point guard has position in the paint. Big man goes in for a layup. Contact squarely in the chest. Small point guard goes down. No call?
I don't think so.

Same exact play with different results gets a different call. It may be your pet peeve, but it is a fact that we are taught to use "advantage/disadvantage" and "displacement" to determine fouls. A Big Man can take more contact and not be disadvantaged or displaced. Coaches don't mind the advantage a big mans size gives him over smaller players. When it comes to contact, he can take more without a foul being called. Imagine calling a foul on the small guard for bumping the big man going in for a layup and the big man doesn't even move. Now, imagine the effect the Big man is going to have on the small guard in the same play. One was disadvantaged, the other was not.

[OHBBREF]

Wow - so the whole advantage/disadvantage thing is not true?
Someone forgot to pass that one around.

First off we are talking post play here which has a whole different set of parameters for contact, we do allow a lot of contact here, the arm bar is legal, as is some leaning as long as there is still freedom of movement, we do not call the foul.

There is a lot we do not know here such as size of the big guy. If this guy is 6’10” 325 lbs playing against 5’ 11” 120 lbs players in the post there are going to be problems and the decision on what constitutes a foul are not going to seem equal.
What are the fouls offensive, defensive, holds, blocks, there are a lot of variables not mentioned. Is this kid swatting at trys for goal and getting called for arm contact? Is he not getting straight up in the air, a lot of big men have trouble lifting their arms above their heads.

Somebody saying things are unequal isn’t enough to jump on board the band wagon.

Rule citations that spell this out
Rule 4
SECTION 19 FOUL
A foul is an infraction of the rules which is charged and is penalized.
ART. 1 . . . A personal foul is a player foul which involves illegal contact with an opponent while the ball is live, which hinders an opponent from performing normal defensive and offensive movements. A personal foul also includes contact by or on an airborne shooter when the ball is dead.

SECTION 27 INCIDENTAL CONTACT
Incidental contact is contact with an opponent which is permitted and which does not constitute a foul.
ART. 2 . . . Contact which occurs unintentionally in an effort by an opponent to reach a loose ball, or contact which may result when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive movements, should not be considered illegal, even though the contact may be severe.
ART. 3 . . . Similarly, contact which does not hinder the opponent from participating in normal defensive or offensive movements should be considered incidental.


If there is a large disparity in size in most cases the bigger player is going to be able to “play through” some of the contact and will be expected to do so. While his contact on the little guy is going to have more of an effect on the little guy so it is going to get called a foul more often.
Some coaches will also tell his smaller players to exaggerate the results of that contact which might influence an official’s call, wrongly so, but it does happen.

But no way can you say that the contact of a 5” 5” 120 lb guy leaning on a 6’ 10” 320 lb guy is the same if you reverse the situation, therefore the calls can be different. That is the rule interpretation.

Having said that if the big guy is working hard and the defense is double and triple teaming him, illegally preventing him from getting to his spots, I am going to call those fouls. If tre is freedom of movemnt as long as he isn't forcing his way through people or displacing people I am not going to call that contact a foul.

So the coach needs to work with his big man to get him to play better defense with less contact and he will be better off, when he is a lot larger than the kids defending him, it will make him a better player now, and will help chances of being able to move on in the game.

[brettdj]

Originally Posted by rwest

Situation A: Big Man has position in the paint. Small point guard goes in for a layup. Contact squarely in the chest. Big man doesn't move. Small point guard bounces off of him. No call.

Situation B: Small point guard has position in the paint. Big man goes in for a layup. Contact squarely in the chest. Small point guard goes down. No call?
I don't think so.

Same exact play with different results gets a different call. It may be your pet peeve, but it is a fact that we are taught to use "advantage/disadvantage" and "displacement" to determine fouls. A Big Man can take more contact and not be disadvantaged or displaced. Coaches don't mind the advantage a big mans size gives him over smaller players. When it comes to contact, he can take more without a foul being called. Imagine calling a foul on the small guard for bumping the big man going in for a layup and the big man doesn't even move. Now, imagine the effect the Big man is going to have on the small guard in the same play. One was disadvantaged, the other was not.

( I am a player(small guy) not an official)
But it is usually
Situation A: Small guard bounces off, foul on big man
Situation B: Small guard to ground, foul on big man.

[deecee]

that just has to do with the official and his level of skill. It has no bearing on what should be called. In most cases, and players need to understand this, unless its a HS varsity contest or higher (this goes for wreck league as well) the quality is greatly diminished of the officiating staff. Its a fact of reality. Not to say all are bad, just overall the level is significantly lower in who takes their job seriously, as well as many other factors that are not dealt with at the higher, accountable levels of basketball.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by brettdj

( I am a player(small guy) not an official)
But it is usually
Situation A: Small guard bounces off, foul on big man
Situation B: Small guard to ground, foul on big man.

I had a situation where a Big Man was just standing there. The offensive player turned around and ran into him and bounced off. I made no call. As Scotty would say to Captain Kirk... "I can't change the laws of physics, man!". A object of smaller mass is going to bounce off of an object of larger mass unless the accleration of the smaller object is such that the force it generates is great enough to displace the larger object.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by rwest

Situation A: Big Man has position in the paint. Small point guard goes in for a layup. Contact squarely in the chest. Big man doesn't move. Small point guard bounces off of him. No call.

Situation B: Small point guard has position in the paint. Big man goes in for a layup. Contact squarely in the chest. Small point guard goes down. No call?
I don't think so.

Same exact play with different results gets a different call. It may be your pet peeve, but it is a fact that we are taught to use "advantage/disadvantage" and "displacement" to determine fouls. A Big Man can take more contact and not be disadvantaged or displaced. Coaches don't mind the advantage a big mans size gives him over smaller players. When it comes to contact, he can take more without a foul being called. Imagine calling a foul on the small guard for bumping the big man going in for a layup and the big man doesn't even move. Now, imagine the effect the Big man is going to have on the small guard in the same play. One was disadvantaged, the other was not.

So Big Man catches pass in the low post and pivots to shoot a right handed Kareem-style-skyhook. Little guard is hanging on Big Man's left arm. Big Man shoots the right handed shot with left arm being drug towards ground. Obviously there was no advantage/disadvantage because the big, strong Big Man was able to complete his hook shot, so you would not call a foul, right?