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Old Tue Feb 10, 2009, 11:30am
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Big Man Penalized by REFS?????

That was the title on a high school sports message board. Here is what the coach had to say:

I have watched many talented basketball players over the years,and have been eye witness to state championship runs. My teams haven't had athletically gifted big men until this year, noramlly very talented shooting guards. With all of the hype surrounding this player I'm sure that opponents come into the game with one thing in mind and that is to push him around try to out work him, great I get that and it's fine that the REFS allow that. HOWEVER, why when he pushes back is everything a foul? The paint is a Jungle!! Survival of the fittest, fight for position underneath go up strong finish, repeat. It appears to me that every event I attend my D-1 recruit is held to a higher standard a "nicer" version of what life on the inside is like no contact position yourself without touching, don't post, up fade away always. Just ranting-but does anyone else see this also???


Here is how I responded:

Maybe you should survey the coaches and fans of the teams you play against. I bet you will hear them say that you big guy gets all of the calls and gets away with physical play just because he is a star player. It often goes both ways.

Here is what the coach had to say:

I'm objective enough to see both sides of this arguement and there have been 2 games during this season were that could be true (2). The rest of the time even at home, no wait, ESPECIALLY at HOME he is abused by the officiating crews religiously. He just doesn't get to play physical and there has been times when it has taken him mentally out of the game, to the point he will just about quit because he feels that he can't even sneeze without getting a whistle.

Does anybody here think what college coaches will think about "my D-1 recruit" who "will just about quit because he feels that he can't even sneeze without getting a whistle"?
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Old Tue Feb 10, 2009, 11:33am
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Tell the coach he needs to learn how to play.

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Old Tue Feb 10, 2009, 12:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harmbu View Post
That was the title on a high school sports message board. Here is what the coach had to say:

I have watched many talented basketball players over the years,and have been eye witness to state championship runs. My teams haven't had athletically gifted big men until this year, noramlly very talented shooting guards. With all of the hype surrounding this player I'm sure that opponents come into the game with one thing in mind and that is to push him around try to out work him, great I get that and it's fine that the REFS allow that. HOWEVER, why when he pushes back is everything a foul? The paint is a Jungle!! Survival of the fittest, fight for position underneath go up strong finish, repeat. It appears to me that every event I attend my D-1 recruit is held to a higher standard a "nicer" version of what life on the inside is like no contact position yourself without touching, don't post, up fade away always. Just ranting-but does anyone else see this also???


Here is how I responded:

Maybe you should survey the coaches and fans of the teams you play against. I bet you will hear them say that you big guy gets all of the calls and gets away with physical play just because he is a star player. It often goes both ways.

Here is what the coach had to say:

I'm objective enough to see both sides of this arguement and there have been 2 games during this season were that could be true (2). The rest of the time even at home, no wait, ESPECIALLY at HOME he is abused by the officiating crews religiously. He just doesn't get to play physical and there has been times when it has taken him mentally out of the game, to the point he will just about quit because he feels that he can't even sneeze without getting a whistle.

Does anybody here think what college coaches will think about "my D-1 recruit" who "will just about quit because he feels that he can't even sneeze without getting a whistle"?
I always taught my players to adjust to the officials, because they won't adjust to you. It's not hard to find out, early in a game, how it is going to be called and play accordingly.
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Old Tue Feb 10, 2009, 12:14pm
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Sounds like the same "problem" Shaq had in HS and college.......
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Old Tue Feb 10, 2009, 12:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach View Post
I always taught my players to adjust to the officials, because they won't adjust to you. It's not hard to find out, early in a game, how it is going to be called and play accordingly.
Its tough to adjust when you have to have everything your way. Thats the growing attitude with many players. Good coaches are content and happy with consistency. Bad coaches dont know wtf they are doing. Pain the a$$ coaches can fall into either of the previous 2 categories, however their lack of objectivity clouds their judgement. Guess which category MOST coaches fall into.
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Old Tue Feb 10, 2009, 01:19pm
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I don't see a crying face to insert here.

Physical play is a point of emphasis and has been for years, so if your big man being physical it is going to be called, and if they are pushing yor big man around it should be called, however coach, there is something called advantage/disadvantage, their big men probably aren't really pushing your guy around enough to make a difference and your guy is.
Teach him footwork and balance and all of the skills that he will need to advance the next level they can teach him how to be more physical at that level.
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Old Tue Feb 10, 2009, 01:55pm
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My personal Pet Peeve is this concept that the Bigs can take more physical play and usually do. To me its BS if the call would be made on a guard then it should be made on a post. I can't tell you how frustrating it was when I played (many moons ago I might add) to work so hard for position get a nice pass and get knocked around with no call.
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Old Tue Feb 10, 2009, 01:58pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OHBBREF View Post
I don't see a crying face to insert here.

Physical play is a point of emphasis and has been for years, so if your big man being physical it is going to be called, and if they are pushing yor big man around it should be called, however coach, there is something called advantage/disadvantage, their big men probably aren't really pushing your guy around enough to make a difference and your guy is.
Teach him footwork and balance and all of the skills that he will need to advance the next level they can teach him how to be more physical at that level.
OHBBREF,
I think that you are precisely the type of official that the coach is complaining about. If a big man is in the post getting pushed on all night long, you are not going to call the foul on the defenders simply because the post man is strong and not "looking like" he is getting pushed. Then, you are going to turn around and call the foul on the big post man when he bumps into a kid that weighs 80 pounds less -- THE SAME BUMP that you allowed the little post man get away with at the other end.

Basically, you are telling the big guy, "sorry, you are so big and strong, even if you are getting leaned on all night by four different guys, you are not moving, therefore, I will only call the fouls tonight on you."

I disagree with this mentality (I also disagree with the percentage of games that the team encountered this type of officiating -- all but two games does not sound reasonable). Getting physically beaten on all game long takes it toll. Just because the post man is strong enough to make the power lay-up with a guy hanging on his arm, doesn't mean the foul should not be called (the defender obviously did not gain an "advantage" because the post man still made the shot).

In case you have not seen the "next level" much, play in the post is awfully physical.

Flat out pushes by the big post man absolutely need to be called. Discriminating against a player because he is big and strong isn't fair either. If he is skilled enough to make the power lay-up with the player on his arm, he should be rewarded with a three point opportunity.
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Old Tue Feb 10, 2009, 01:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeEater View Post
My personal Pet Peeve is this concept that the Bigs can take more physical play and usually do. To me its BS if the call would be made on a guard then it should be made on a post. I can't tell you how frustrating it was when I played (many moons ago I might add) to work so hard for position get a nice pass and get knocked around with no call.
The reality is they can. And if someone runs into them and bounces off, that is not going to get the same reaction from as it would in other situations.

That being said, they should be allowed to play in their space and if they are put at a disadvantage, then something should be called in their favor. But big guys often like to push and grab until they learn how to use their size instead of just get an advantage from illegally. This sounds like the problem with the coach not knowing how to teach his player properly.

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Old Tue Feb 10, 2009, 02:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeEater View Post
My personal Pet Peeve is this concept that the Bigs can take more physical play and usually do. To me its BS if the call would be made on a guard then it should be made on a post. I can't tell you how frustrating it was when I played (many moons ago I might add) to work so hard for position get a nice pass and get knocked around with no call.
Agreed. It drives me nuts when a smaller player is allowed to use hips and shoulders to move bigger players with position around, and then some little bump by the bigger player is called a foul because he/she is bigger. Can't stand it when I'm on the court, can't stand it when I'm watching.
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Old Tue Feb 10, 2009, 02:12pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
The reality is they can. And if someone runs into them and bounces off, that is not going to get the same reaction from as it would in other situations.

That being said, they should be allowed to play in their space and if they are put at a disadvantage, then something should be called in their favor. But big guys often like to push and grab until they learn how to use their size instead of just get an advantage from illegally. This sounds like the problem with the coach not knowing how to teach his player properly.

Peace
I know your not saying this but here is what it sounds like.

"I will officiate to the reactions contact gets from others."

CMHCoachNRef pretty much summed up my opinon also.
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Old Tue Feb 10, 2009, 02:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OHBBREF View Post
I don't see a crying face to insert here.
How's this one? In fact, it looks just like that coach.

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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 10, 2009, 02:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeEater View Post
I know your not saying this but here is what it sounds like.

"I will officiate to the reactions contact gets from others."
If a player is not put at a disadvantage, it is not a foul. That is what the rules say. And if someone runs into you and you do not move, you are not put at a disadvantage in my opinion. So yes, the reaction to contact does apply. It should apply or you cannot call a foul.

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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 10, 2009, 02:47pm
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Vets on my board say this all the time....

"all fouls involve contact, but not all contact is a foul". I agree with the idea of advantage/disatvantage and displacement.

Not saying I'm right or wrong, just my $.02.
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Old Tue Feb 10, 2009, 03:08pm
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So.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeEater View Post
My personal Pet Peeve is this concept that the Bigs can take more physical play and usually do. To me its BS if the call would be made on a guard then it should be made on a post. I can't tell you how frustrating it was when I played (many moons ago I might add) to work so hard for position get a nice pass and get knocked around with no call.
Situation A: Big Man has position in the paint. Small point guard goes in for a layup. Contact squarely in the chest. Big man doesn't move. Small point guard bounces off of him. No call.

Situation B: Small point guard has position in the paint. Big man goes in for a layup. Contact squarely in the chest. Small point guard goes down. No call?
I don't think so.

Same exact play with different results gets a different call. It may be your pet peeve, but it is a fact that we are taught to use "advantage/disadvantage" and "displacement" to determine fouls. A Big Man can take more contact and not be disadvantaged or displaced. Coaches don't mind the advantage a big mans size gives him over smaller players. When it comes to contact, he can take more without a foul being called. Imagine calling a foul on the small guard for bumping the big man going in for a layup and the big man doesn't even move. Now, imagine the effect the Big man is going to have on the small guard in the same play. One was disadvantaged, the other was not.
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