Shot Clock Backcourt Violation

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Man In Blue

The shot clock is what makes this sit interesting.

You could say the same thing for a 3 second violation. The lead is watching the paint and is looking for advantage/ disadvantage. By rule the trail has the right to make a 3 second call.

Three seconds and 10 second back court are two different things. Would you have the lead call a 5 second count that the Trail has started a count near the division line?

Peace

[Man In Blue]

I might I am kind of a call hog!

There are so many interesting situations and how each of us would handel them.

[dbking]

shot clock should not start until there is team control. Big rule difference between NFHS and NCAA. Team control exists during a throw in in NCAA and does not in NFHS. We do not have shot clock in HS and I assume they use the team control part of the rule. The game clock and shot clock should start independent of each other.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by dbking

shot clock should not start until there is team control. Big rule difference between NFHS and NCAA. Team control exists during a throw in in NCAA and does not in NFHS. We do not have shot clock in HS and I assume they use the team control part of the rule. The game clock and shot clock should start independent of each other.

Reference please??

Peace

[dbking]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Reference please??

Peace

NCAA 4-61 Is the time to shoot during team control
NCAA 2-15-2c When a player has ball at disposal for a throw in ( Team Control def )
NCAA 5-9-4 The game and shot start when ball is legally touched on a throw in

nfhs 4-12-2 There is no team control during a throw in.

I do not have any rule book for a nfhs shot clock. The shot clock on any missed attempt does not start when the ball is deflected during a rebound. It only starts when the ball is in team control and is reset when control is changed or it hits the rim of team in control's basket.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by dbking

NCAA 4-61 Is the time to shoot during team control
NCAA 2-15-2c When a player has ball at disposal for a throw in ( Team Control def )

So the shot clock starts when the ball is at the disposal of the thrower? Not quite.

Originally Posted by dbking

NCAA 5-9-4 The game and shot start when ball is legally touched on a throw in

Right, but if the "defense" touches the ball, the "offense" is not in team control at that moment now are they?

Originally Posted by dbking

nfhs 4-12-2 There is no team control during a throw in.

The team control foul in NCAA Rules, is to allow or FTs not to be shot and award a team control foul.

BTW, NCAA 9-10 says:

Section 10. (Men) 10-Second Violation
An inbounds player (and his team) shall not be in continuous control of a
ball that is in his back court for 10 consecutive seconds.

Originally Posted by dbking

I do not have any rule book for a nfhs shot clock. The shot clock on any missed attempt does not start when the ball is deflected during a rebound. It only starts when the ball is in team control and is reset when control is changed or it hits the rim of team in control's basket.

There are no shot clock rules for the NF. That is not an approved rule.

Peace

[dbking]

The shot clock starts on a throw in when it is legally touched inbounds. It does not have to have an offensive player touch. There is team control. Therefore the shot clock starts on the touch, either offense or defense.

[OHBBREF]

I have two problems with the lead making this call, first who is watching the other eight players on the court? I presume the trail has the on ball match-up -So if the lead is watching that match-up to and the clock the others could be running amuck.

Secondly at 24 there are many other things that could be going on that would allow for a difference of one maybe two seconds in the time that have been named here, now if the clock were at 15 or 20 seconds possibly I can see the lead making the call but I still have to go back to scenario A who is watching the rest of the game?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I have a huge problem with the lead calling this. For one the count of the officials is the only thing that matters.

Why would you say this? The rule says they're allowed 10 seconds. It doesn't say that they are allowed to be in the backcourt until the official counts to 10. If you have definite knowledge that they've had control in the backcourt for 10 seconds, SOMEBODY has to call it. If the Trail is distracted by the backcourt pressure, then who else can call it? (Hint: the Lead. )

And to answer your question about doing it without the shot clock, I would say that the shot clock simply makes it easier for the Lead to help. I would not expect the Lead to check the game clock after every made basket. It's a much harder sell to the coach without the shot clock, no doubt. I wouldn't expect help from the Lead without it. Although, if we were coming out of a time-out and the game clock showed 0:47, that would be pretty easy to explain.

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

I have two problems with the lead making this call, first who is watching the other eight players on the court?

We're talking most likely about a pressing situation. So the Trail has more than just a 1-on-1 matchup to worry about. So that leave fewer than 8 other players for the Lead to watch. Secondly, if the Lead also has too much to watch, then obviously, I'm not going to say that he/she should be clockwatching as well. But it's not that hard to look up from midcourt and see the shot clock. I would expect that -- even in a press -- the Lead would be able to sneak a peek at the shot clock to help out with the 10-seconds.

Secondly at 24 there are many other things that could be going on that would allow for a difference of one maybe two seconds in the time that have been named here,

You must have missed my "two big ifs". IF you know that control was established immediately, and IF you know that the shot clock was started properly, then there's no difference between the shot clock and the 10-second count. That's the situation I'm talking about.

now if the clock were at 15 or 20 seconds possibly I can see the lead making the call but I still have to go back to scenario A who is watching the rest of the game?

If it takes somebody 15 or 20 seconds to call a 10-second violation, then shame on them. That's completely unacceptable and I would BEG my partner to help me if that were me.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

We're talking most likely about a pressing situation. So the Trail has more than just a 1-on-1 matchup to worry about. So that leave fewer than 8 other players for the Lead to watch.

You said heavy press the trail's primary match-up is the ball and the nearest defenders. The lead is responsible for the rest with some over lap, you also have the lead stationed at mid court? The lead has to be as deep as the deepest players. So if everyone is in the back court the scenario might work, but at 34 on the shot clock the Lead still needs to make he call.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Secondly, if the Lead also has too much to watch, then obviously, I'm not going to say that he/she should be clockwatching as well. But it's not that hard to look up from midcourt and see the shot clock. I would expect that -- even in a press -- the Lead would be able to sneak a peek at the shot clock to help out with the 10-seconds.

So the lead would have to be looking at - the shot clock and the position of the ball in relation to its position in the back court vs. front court and give up on all the match ups in their area. The clock better be further along than 34 seconds IMO

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

You must have missed my "two big ifs". IF you know that control was established immediately, and IF you know that the shot clock was started properly, then there's no difference between the shot clock and the 10-second count. That's the situation I'm talking about.

I am still not making the call at 34 seconds - too close I am going to give my partner a chance to make the call because that is who is designated the responsibility by the officials manuals, and if it is close I really do not want to open that can -O - worms

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

If it takes somebody 15 or 20 seconds to call a 10-second violation, then shame on them. That's completely unacceptable and I would BEG my partner to help me if that were me.

Yes I was being sarcastic, my point is this - If from the lead position YOU make a backcourt violation call at 34 seconds on the shot clock, and as the trail I have a 9 count - we have a problem.
If you make that call from the lead it better be after 12 - 13 seconds to be absolutly sure that there is a violation. We need to trust our partners to be doing their job. if you look up and the ball is clearly in the back court and the clock reads 31 then there may be an issue for you to blow your whistle. But IMHO the lead should not make a backcourt call based on the shot clock at 34 or 20 seconds because there are problems in the crew if that happens.

[Scrapper1]

First of all, you're honestly confusing the heck out of me because in the same post you're talking about the shot clock being at 34 or 31 or 24. I have no idea what you're trying to say in some places.

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

The lead is responsible for the rest with some over lap, you also have the lead stationed at mid court?

The Lead's position is irrelevant to the general question. I said midcourt, because that's generally the new Lead's starting position during a heavy press. But the Lead can sneak a peek at the shot clock from anywhere on the court. That's not really a relevant point to the conversation.

So the lead would have to be looking at - the shot clock and the position of the ball in relation to its position in the back court vs. front court and give up on all the match ups in their area. The clock better be further along than 34 seconds IMO

What does the amount of time on the clock have to do with giving up on matchups? If the pressure near the Lead is so intense that he/she CAN'T sneak a peek at the clock, then he/she shouldn't do it. I won't argue that. But having said that, it's just not that hard to take .2 seconds to look at the clock.

my point is this - If from the lead position YOU make a backcourt violation call at 34 seconds on the shot clock, and as the trail I have a 9 count - we have a problem.

With all due respect, if the shot clock started properly and if team control was established immediately, then if the shot clock shows 24 and your count is at 9, then YOU have a problem. Your count is inaccurate by almost 20%. That's the whole point of getting help from the Lead.

If you make that call from the lead it better be after 12 - 13 seconds to be absolutly sure that there is a violation. We need to trust our partners to be doing their job.

But they're NOT doing their job. That's the entire point of the conversation. The clock is telling somebody that there has been a violation, yet your partner isn't calling it. They're NOT doing their job. So SOMEBODY better do it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Why would you say this? The rule says they're allowed 10 seconds. It doesn't say that they are allowed to be in the backcourt until the official counts to 10. If you have definite knowledge that they've had control in the backcourt for 10 seconds, SOMEBODY has to call it. If the Trail is distracted by the backcourt pressure, then who else can call it? (Hint: the Lead. )

I would not advocate the Lead calling this ever. If they are calling this or looking for this, they are not watching their responsibilities. They have other things to watch and they do not know if the ball was started properly and the NCAA Casebook even has a play where the clock was not started correctly. And if the Trail is distracted, they need not be on the game. Their main job is to watch the ball count and make sure there is a violation. If they cannot do that, you do not need a Trail in this situation.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

And to answer your question about doing it without the shot clock, I would say that the shot clock simply makes it easier for the Lead to help. I would not expect the Lead to check the game clock after every made basket. It's a much harder sell to the coach without the shot clock, no doubt. I wouldn't expect help from the Lead without it. Although, if we were coming out of a time-out and the game clock showed 0:47, that would be pretty easy to explain.

This would be about as silly as a Lead calling a BC violation while on the end line.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

We're talking most likely about a pressing situation. So the Trail has more than just a 1-on-1 matchup to worry about. So that leave fewer than 8 other players for the Lead to watch. Secondly, if the Lead also has too much to watch, then obviously, I'm not going to say that he/she should be clockwatching as well. But it's not that hard to look up from midcourt and see the shot clock. I would expect that -- even in a press -- the Lead would be able to sneak a peek at the shot clock to help out with the 10-seconds.

We are just going to have to disagree on this one. I have never heard anyone at the college level advocate such craziness.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

You must have missed my "two big ifs". IF you know that control was established immediately, and IF you know that the shot clock was started properly, then there's no difference between the shot clock and the 10-second count. That's the situation I'm talking about.

If it takes somebody 15 or 20 seconds to call a 10-second violation, then shame on them. That's completely unacceptable and I would BEG my partner to help me if that were me.

Why not have other officials start calling other official's lines? After all they might have knowledge of what happen. Let us throw out all the mechanics, because officials see things they think they know?

Peace

[mutantducky]

can someone mark these down. I just want to be sure

HS
Shot Clock beings when...
10 Second count begins when...

College- Same