Shot Clock Backcourt Violation

[OHBBREF]

I have two problems with the lead making this call, first who is watching the other eight players on the court? I presume the trail has the on ball match-up -So if the lead is watching that match-up to and the clock the others could be running amuck.

Secondly at 24 there are many other things that could be going on that would allow for a difference of one maybe two seconds in the time that have been named here, now if the clock were at 15 or 20 seconds possibly I can see the lead making the call but I still have to go back to scenario A who is watching the rest of the game?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I have a huge problem with the lead calling this. For one the count of the officials is the only thing that matters.

Why would you say this? The rule says they're allowed 10 seconds. It doesn't say that they are allowed to be in the backcourt until the official counts to 10. If you have definite knowledge that they've had control in the backcourt for 10 seconds, SOMEBODY has to call it. If the Trail is distracted by the backcourt pressure, then who else can call it? (Hint: the Lead. )

And to answer your question about doing it without the shot clock, I would say that the shot clock simply makes it easier for the Lead to help. I would not expect the Lead to check the game clock after every made basket. It's a much harder sell to the coach without the shot clock, no doubt. I wouldn't expect help from the Lead without it. Although, if we were coming out of a time-out and the game clock showed 0:47, that would be pretty easy to explain.

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

I have two problems with the lead making this call, first who is watching the other eight players on the court?

We're talking most likely about a pressing situation. So the Trail has more than just a 1-on-1 matchup to worry about. So that leave fewer than 8 other players for the Lead to watch. Secondly, if the Lead also has too much to watch, then obviously, I'm not going to say that he/she should be clockwatching as well. But it's not that hard to look up from midcourt and see the shot clock. I would expect that -- even in a press -- the Lead would be able to sneak a peek at the shot clock to help out with the 10-seconds.

Secondly at 24 there are many other things that could be going on that would allow for a difference of one maybe two seconds in the time that have been named here,

You must have missed my "two big ifs". IF you know that control was established immediately, and IF you know that the shot clock was started properly, then there's no difference between the shot clock and the 10-second count. That's the situation I'm talking about.

now if the clock were at 15 or 20 seconds possibly I can see the lead making the call but I still have to go back to scenario A who is watching the rest of the game?

If it takes somebody 15 or 20 seconds to call a 10-second violation, then shame on them. That's completely unacceptable and I would BEG my partner to help me if that were me.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

We're talking most likely about a pressing situation. So the Trail has more than just a 1-on-1 matchup to worry about. So that leave fewer than 8 other players for the Lead to watch.

You said heavy press the trail's primary match-up is the ball and the nearest defenders. The lead is responsible for the rest with some over lap, you also have the lead stationed at mid court? The lead has to be as deep as the deepest players. So if everyone is in the back court the scenario might work, but at 34 on the shot clock the Lead still needs to make he call.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Secondly, if the Lead also has too much to watch, then obviously, I'm not going to say that he/she should be clockwatching as well. But it's not that hard to look up from midcourt and see the shot clock. I would expect that -- even in a press -- the Lead would be able to sneak a peek at the shot clock to help out with the 10-seconds.

So the lead would have to be looking at - the shot clock and the position of the ball in relation to its position in the back court vs. front court and give up on all the match ups in their area. The clock better be further along than 34 seconds IMO

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

You must have missed my "two big ifs". IF you know that control was established immediately, and IF you know that the shot clock was started properly, then there's no difference between the shot clock and the 10-second count. That's the situation I'm talking about.

I am still not making the call at 34 seconds - too close I am going to give my partner a chance to make the call because that is who is designated the responsibility by the officials manuals, and if it is close I really do not want to open that can -O - worms

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

If it takes somebody 15 or 20 seconds to call a 10-second violation, then shame on them. That's completely unacceptable and I would BEG my partner to help me if that were me.

Yes I was being sarcastic, my point is this - If from the lead position YOU make a backcourt violation call at 34 seconds on the shot clock, and as the trail I have a 9 count - we have a problem.
If you make that call from the lead it better be after 12 - 13 seconds to be absolutly sure that there is a violation. We need to trust our partners to be doing their job. if you look up and the ball is clearly in the back court and the clock reads 31 then there may be an issue for you to blow your whistle. But IMHO the lead should not make a backcourt call based on the shot clock at 34 or 20 seconds because there are problems in the crew if that happens.

[Scrapper1]

First of all, you're honestly confusing the heck out of me because in the same post you're talking about the shot clock being at 34 or 31 or 24. I have no idea what you're trying to say in some places.

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

The lead is responsible for the rest with some over lap, you also have the lead stationed at mid court?

The Lead's position is irrelevant to the general question. I said midcourt, because that's generally the new Lead's starting position during a heavy press. But the Lead can sneak a peek at the shot clock from anywhere on the court. That's not really a relevant point to the conversation.

So the lead would have to be looking at - the shot clock and the position of the ball in relation to its position in the back court vs. front court and give up on all the match ups in their area. The clock better be further along than 34 seconds IMO

What does the amount of time on the clock have to do with giving up on matchups? If the pressure near the Lead is so intense that he/she CAN'T sneak a peek at the clock, then he/she shouldn't do it. I won't argue that. But having said that, it's just not that hard to take .2 seconds to look at the clock.

my point is this - If from the lead position YOU make a backcourt violation call at 34 seconds on the shot clock, and as the trail I have a 9 count - we have a problem.

With all due respect, if the shot clock started properly and if team control was established immediately, then if the shot clock shows 24 and your count is at 9, then YOU have a problem. Your count is inaccurate by almost 20%. That's the whole point of getting help from the Lead.

If you make that call from the lead it better be after 12 - 13 seconds to be absolutly sure that there is a violation. We need to trust our partners to be doing their job.

But they're NOT doing their job. That's the entire point of the conversation. The clock is telling somebody that there has been a violation, yet your partner isn't calling it. They're NOT doing their job. So SOMEBODY better do it.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

First of all, you're honestly confusing the heck out of me because in the same post you're talking about the shot clock being at 34 or 31 or 24. I have no idea what you're trying to say in some places.

34 should have read 24 typing error sorry.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

The Lead's position is irrelevant to the general question. I said midcourt, because that's generally the new Lead's starting position during a heavy press. But the Lead can sneak a peek at the shot clock from anywhere on the court. That's not really a relevant point to the conversation.

Yes position is a relevant point to any call made by an official on the court. we talk about moving to be in position to make the call all of the time.
if the ball is near the mid-court line with the clock a 24/20 and the lead makes a backourt call from the front court baseline with their partner right with the play, there is a problem and I would believe that most assignors - reviewers will have a problem with the lead making that call with 24/20 seconds on the shot clock

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

What does the amount of time on the clock have to do with giving up on matchups? If the pressure near the Lead is so intense that he/she CAN'T sneak a peek at the clock, then he/she shouldn't do it. I won't argue that. But having said that, it's just not that hard to take .2 seconds to look at the clock.

It isn't hard, and most do it all the time, even with intense matchups - but looking at the clock and watching the ball out of your primary to make a 10 second call at almost exactly 10 seconds is the problem.
it gives a horrible impression about the crew.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

With all due respect, if the shot clock started properly and if team control was established immediately, then if the shot clock shows 24 and your count is at 9, then YOU have a problem. Your count is inaccurate by almost 20%. That's the whole point of getting help from the Lead.

I am failrly good with my counts but I use the count, not the clock because the rules say that the official is responsible to
ART. 9 . . . Silently and visibly counting seconds to administer the throw-in (7-6), free-throw (8-4; 9-1-3), backcourt (9-8) and closely-guarded (9-10) rules.
It also says for ten seconds - but 20% on 10 seconds based on what I have seen over the years is pretty good. again the lead making that call at 24 is too close.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

But they're NOT doing their job. That's the entire point of the conversation. The clock is telling somebody that there has been a violation, yet your partner isn't calling it. They're NOT doing their job. So SOMEBODY better do it.

The clock isn't telling anyone anything - noone but the trail official knows when that count started, and if you step in and make that call at 24/20 seconds it is too close.
I am not saying that the lead can not help their partner out on this call - what I am saying is that the lead should not do it at almost exactly 10 seconds, it needs to be blatantly obvious to everyone in the gym that 10 seconds has elapsed and my partner missed it.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

yet your partner isn't calling it. They're NOT doing their job. So SOMEBODY better do it.

just a quick point on this particular comment,
drive to the basket opposite side by A1 who is bumped slightly by B1 (primary defender). the whistle comes in from the trail at mid court table side before the ball leaves A1's hand. Yes it is different in that it is judgement on the contact, but unless B1 is lying on the floor that isn't a call I want to see the trail make from mid-court, and especialy before the ball leaves the shooters hands. If you come that far for a call out of your primary it had better be the 600 lb gorrilla in the room.
Calling a backcourt violation at exactly 10 seconds by the shot clock (right or wrong) as the lead on a play is not a good call IMHO - if you wait until it is 12 seconds then maybe you have to go get it.

[stosh]

In Maryland, the girls play with a shot clock. As a result, there is no 10 second backcourt count and there is no closely gaurded count either in the backcourt. The 30 second shot clock starts when the ball is controlled by a team and ends/is reset when the ball has either gone through the basket, hits the rim on a tap or a try, a foul is committed, there is a turnover, or a violation is committed by the defense (kicked ball being the obvious one).

Sometimes as the trail you get the feeling your not doing anything because you're not "hashing anything off" while the ball is in the backcourt.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Why would you say this? The rule says they're allowed 10 seconds. It doesn't say that they are allowed to be in the backcourt until the official counts to 10. If you have definite knowledge that they've had control in the backcourt for 10 seconds, SOMEBODY has to call it. If the Trail is distracted by the backcourt pressure, then who else can call it? (Hint: the Lead. )

I would not advocate the Lead calling this ever. If they are calling this or looking for this, they are not watching their responsibilities. They have other things to watch and they do not know if the ball was started properly and the NCAA Casebook even has a play where the clock was not started correctly. And if the Trail is distracted, they need not be on the game. Their main job is to watch the ball count and make sure there is a violation. If they cannot do that, you do not need a Trail in this situation.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

And to answer your question about doing it without the shot clock, I would say that the shot clock simply makes it easier for the Lead to help. I would not expect the Lead to check the game clock after every made basket. It's a much harder sell to the coach without the shot clock, no doubt. I wouldn't expect help from the Lead without it. Although, if we were coming out of a time-out and the game clock showed 0:47, that would be pretty easy to explain.

This would be about as silly as a Lead calling a BC violation while on the end line.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

We're talking most likely about a pressing situation. So the Trail has more than just a 1-on-1 matchup to worry about. So that leave fewer than 8 other players for the Lead to watch. Secondly, if the Lead also has too much to watch, then obviously, I'm not going to say that he/she should be clockwatching as well. But it's not that hard to look up from midcourt and see the shot clock. I would expect that -- even in a press -- the Lead would be able to sneak a peek at the shot clock to help out with the 10-seconds.

We are just going to have to disagree on this one. I have never heard anyone at the college level advocate such craziness.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

You must have missed my "two big ifs". IF you know that control was established immediately, and IF you know that the shot clock was started properly, then there's no difference between the shot clock and the 10-second count. That's the situation I'm talking about.

If it takes somebody 15 or 20 seconds to call a 10-second violation, then shame on them. That's completely unacceptable and I would BEG my partner to help me if that were me.

Why not have other officials start calling other official's lines? After all they might have knowledge of what happen. Let us throw out all the mechanics, because officials see things they think they know?

Peace

[mutantducky]

can someone mark these down. I just want to be sure

HS
Shot Clock beings when...
10 Second count begins when...

College- Same

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

can someone mark these down. I just want to be sure

HS
Shot Clock beings when...
10 Second count begins when...

College- Same

NCAA:
MEN: 10 second count begins once team control is established INBOUNDS.
Women: there is no time limit in the backcourt
For both men and women, when play is restarted with a throw-in, the shot clock starts when the ball is first touched inbounds. When play is restarted from a FT or a jumpball, the shot clock starts once a team establishes control. Following an unsuccessful try for goal, the shot clock starts once a team establishes control.

NFHS:
The backcourt count starts once team control is established.

There is no shot clock rule. A few states have instituted one on their own without the approval of the NFHS. These states have to write their own rules for the operation of the shot clock. Most of them simply follow the NCAA rule.