Shot Clock Backcourt Violation

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Why? There is team control and the ball is in the backcourt....the count is on. It doesn't require player control inbounds since team control began during the throwin. The shot clock and the 10 count start the moment the ball is touched and it is a violation when the clock shows 25/24 (depending on the clock).

Because the NCAA rule specifically says "inbounds player."

"An inbounds player (and his team) shall not be in continuous control of a
ball that is in his back court for 10 consecutive seconds."

The official is not to begin the 10 second count until AN INBOUNDS PLAYER has established control of the ball.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

The Lead's position is irrelevant to the general question. I said midcourt, because that's generally the new Lead's starting position during a heavy press. But the Lead can sneak a peek at the shot clock from anywhere on the court. That's not really a relevant point to the conversation.

Yes position is a relevant point to any call made by an official on the court. we talk about moving to be in position to make the call all of the time.
if the ball is near the mid-court line with the clock a 24/20 and the lead makes a backourt call from the front court baseline with their partner right with the play, there is a problem and I would believe that most assignors - reviewers will have a problem with the lead making that call with 24/20 seconds on the shot clock

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

What does the amount of time on the clock have to do with giving up on matchups? If the pressure near the Lead is so intense that he/she CAN'T sneak a peek at the clock, then he/she shouldn't do it. I won't argue that. But having said that, it's just not that hard to take .2 seconds to look at the clock.

It isn't hard, and most do it all the time, even with intense matchups - but looking at the clock and watching the ball out of your primary to make a 10 second call at almost exactly 10 seconds is the problem.
it gives a horrible impression about the crew.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

With all due respect, if the shot clock started properly and if team control was established immediately, then if the shot clock shows 24 and your count is at 9, then YOU have a problem. Your count is inaccurate by almost 20%. That's the whole point of getting help from the Lead.

I am failrly good with my counts but I use the count, not the clock because the rules say that the official is responsible to
ART. 9 . . . Silently and visibly counting seconds to administer the throw-in (7-6), free-throw (8-4; 9-1-3), backcourt (9-8) and closely-guarded (9-10) rules.
It also says for ten seconds - but 20% on 10 seconds based on what I have seen over the years is pretty good. again the lead making that call at 24 is too close.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

But they're NOT doing their job. That's the entire point of the conversation. The clock is telling somebody that there has been a violation, yet your partner isn't calling it. They're NOT doing their job. So SOMEBODY better do it.

The clock isn't telling anyone anything - noone but the trail official knows when that count started, and if you step in and make that call at 24/20 seconds it is too close.
I am not saying that the lead can not help their partner out on this call - what I am saying is that the lead should not do it at almost exactly 10 seconds, it needs to be blatantly obvious to everyone in the gym that 10 seconds has elapsed and my partner missed it.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

yet your partner isn't calling it. They're NOT doing their job. So SOMEBODY better do it.

just a quick point on this particular comment,
drive to the basket opposite side by A1 who is bumped slightly by B1 (primary defender). the whistle comes in from the trail at mid court table side before the ball leaves A1's hand. Yes it is different in that it is judgement on the contact, but unless B1 is lying on the floor that isn't a call I want to see the trail make from mid-court, and especialy before the ball leaves the shooters hands. If you come that far for a call out of your primary it had better be the 600 lb gorrilla in the room.
Calling a backcourt violation at exactly 10 seconds by the shot clock (right or wrong) as the lead on a play is not a good call IMHO - if you wait until it is 12 seconds then maybe you have to go get it.

[stosh]

In Maryland, the girls play with a shot clock. As a result, there is no 10 second backcourt count and there is no closely gaurded count either in the backcourt. The 30 second shot clock starts when the ball is controlled by a team and ends/is reset when the ball has either gone through the basket, hits the rim on a tap or a try, a foul is committed, there is a turnover, or a violation is committed by the defense (kicked ball being the obvious one).

Sometimes as the trail you get the feeling your not doing anything because you're not "hashing anything off" while the ball is in the backcourt.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Because the NCAA rule specifically says "inbounds player."

"An inbounds player (and his team) shall not be in continuous control of a
ball that is in his back court for 10 consecutive seconds."

The official is not to begin the 10 second count until AN INBOUNDS PLAYER has established control of the ball.

While that may be the wa they want it, that is NOT what the rule says.
The fact that an inbounds player touches the ball that is in team control makes it an inbounds player (and his team) in control.

The INBOUNDS player part is merely to indicate that the count doesn't start until it is touched inbounds even though there is team control during the throwin.

[All_Heart]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

While that may be the wa they want it, that is NOT what the rule says.
The fact that an inbounds player touches the ball that is in team control makes it an inbounds player (and his team) in control.

The INBOUNDS player part is merely to indicate that the count doesn't start until it is touched inbounds even though there is team control during the throwin.

Based on this case play I think you may have a point.

A.R. 203. (Men) The game clock indicates that 1:13 is left in the second half when Team A makes a throw-in after a charged timeout. Team A is charged with a 10-second back-court violation, but the game clock shows that only eight seconds were used. The official timer indicates that the game clock started when the throw-in was touched by a player on the playing court.

RULING: Violation. Team B shall be awarded a throw-in at a
designated spot nearest to where the violation occurred. Rule 2-12 does not provide for the correction of an error made in the referee’s counting of seconds. (Rule 9-10 and 7-5.1)

Why would they state that the "game clock started when the throw-in was touched by a player on the playing court"? This implies that the 10 second count starts when the ball is touched by a player on the court.

[mutantducky]

ergh I would like to see this cleared up. Maybe the rule book isn't clear about it because I have definitely seen 10 violations called with the count starting once the ball has been touched without control.

[JRutledge]

I do not need anything cleared up. I have never read a rule that says the shot clock is tied directly to the 10 second count. Until then, the rule is the same as at the high school level.

Peace

[mutantducky]

all right, I will do the 10 second count once there is control inbounds. Continue the count even if the ball is loose after the initial control. It would be good if there was something more clear in the rule book but of course there are a bunch of things.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

This implies that the 10 second count starts when the ball is touched by a player on the court.

No it does not - it implies (correctly) that the game clock starts when the ball is touched on the inbounds pass - it also implies that the official counts really fast. other than that it doesn't tell you much, that touch could have been a pass to a teammate of the thrower.

this case play only deals with the fact that if an official's count is off it is not something that can be corrected.

[All_Heart]

Good Point