Shot Clock Backcourt Violation

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by dbking

NCAA 4-61 Is the time to shoot during team control
NCAA 2-15-2c When a player has ball at disposal for a throw in ( Team Control def )

So the shot clock starts when the ball is at the disposal of the thrower? Not quite.

Originally Posted by dbking

NCAA 5-9-4 The game and shot start when ball is legally touched on a throw in

Right, but if the "defense" touches the ball, the "offense" is not in team control at that moment now are they?

Originally Posted by dbking

nfhs 4-12-2 There is no team control during a throw in.

The team control foul in NCAA Rules, is to allow or FTs not to be shot and award a team control foul.

BTW, NCAA 9-10 says:

Section 10. (Men) 10-Second Violation
An inbounds player (and his team) shall not be in continuous control of a
ball that is in his back court for 10 consecutive seconds.

Originally Posted by dbking

I do not have any rule book for a nfhs shot clock. The shot clock on any missed attempt does not start when the ball is deflected during a rebound. It only starts when the ball is in team control and is reset when control is changed or it hits the rim of team in control's basket.

There are no shot clock rules for the NF. That is not an approved rule.

Peace

[dbking]

The shot clock starts on a throw in when it is legally touched inbounds. It does not have to have an offensive player touch. There is team control. Therefore the shot clock starts on the touch, either offense or defense.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by dbking

The shot clock starts on a throw in when it is legally touched inbounds. It does not have to have an offensive player touch. There is team control. Therefore the shot clock starts on the touch, either offense or defense.

I did not say it had to be just the "offensive player that touches" starts the game clock or shot clock. That is your claim. But starting the clock and the starting of the ten second count is not the same thing. And you did not show any rule that suggested the situation was simultaneous.

Peace

[All_Heart]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

But (two big "ifs" coming here. . .) IF you know that control was gained immediately and IF you know the shot clock started properly, then when the shot clock shows 24, a violation has occurred.

Doesn't the violation take place when the shot clock shows 25 (IF the 2 items above are present)?

9-10...An inbounds player (and his team) shall not be in continuous control of a ball that is in his back court for 10 consecutive seconds.

If you called the violation when the clock shows 24 then 11 seconds have expired. The violation takes place when the count is equal to 10 seconds. This is different from a throw-in. A throw-in violation occurs when the count is greater then 5 seconds (not equal to 5 seconds):

4-67-5...A thrower-in shall have five seconds from receiving disposal of the ball to release the throw-in. The throw-in count shall end when the ball is released by the thrower-in so that the ball goes directly into the playing court.

The 3 second rule is the same as the throw-in (> 3 seconds):

4-9 Art. 1...A player shall not be permitted to have any part of his or her body remain in the three-second lane for more than three consecutive seconds while the ball is in control of that player’s team in his or her front court.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

Doesn't the violation take place when the shot clock shows 25 (IF the 2 items above are present)?

Yes, but I said 24 because that was the situation in the original post of this thread.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by dbking

The shot clock starts on a throw in when it is legally touched inbounds. It does not have to have an offensive player touch. There is team control. Therefore the shot clock starts on the touch, either offense or defense.

1)Team control is established, is when the shot clock should start for all situations, there is team control on an inbound in NCAA, so the clock starts on the legal touch on the floor of an inbound pass, however, the ten second count does not start until there is established player control by a team in their backcourt. So several seconds may have elapsed off the shot clock before the ball is controlled by the inbounding team in their backcourt so 24 would not be accurate as a guidline or a backcourt violation.

2) No team control on a throw in in NFHS, so the assumption would be that the shot clock would not start until the ball is in someones team control - then the shot clock migt be in sink with the 10 second count. However, the lead shouldn't be watching the ball that closely and make a call at 24.

Someone from California or a federation shotclock state step up and establish the parameters when the clock tarts on an inbound pass.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I have a huge problem with the lead calling this. For one the count of the officials is the only thing that matters.

Why would you say this? The rule says they're allowed 10 seconds. It doesn't say that they are allowed to be in the backcourt until the official counts to 10. If you have definite knowledge that they've had control in the backcourt for 10 seconds, SOMEBODY has to call it. If the Trail is distracted by the backcourt pressure, then who else can call it? (Hint: the Lead. )

And to answer your question about doing it without the shot clock, I would say that the shot clock simply makes it easier for the Lead to help. I would not expect the Lead to check the game clock after every made basket. It's a much harder sell to the coach without the shot clock, no doubt. I wouldn't expect help from the Lead without it. Although, if we were coming out of a time-out and the game clock showed 0:47, that would be pretty easy to explain.

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

I have two problems with the lead making this call, first who is watching the other eight players on the court?

We're talking most likely about a pressing situation. So the Trail has more than just a 1-on-1 matchup to worry about. So that leave fewer than 8 other players for the Lead to watch. Secondly, if the Lead also has too much to watch, then obviously, I'm not going to say that he/she should be clockwatching as well. But it's not that hard to look up from midcourt and see the shot clock. I would expect that -- even in a press -- the Lead would be able to sneak a peek at the shot clock to help out with the 10-seconds.

Secondly at 24 there are many other things that could be going on that would allow for a difference of one maybe two seconds in the time that have been named here,

You must have missed my "two big ifs". IF you know that control was established immediately, and IF you know that the shot clock was started properly, then there's no difference between the shot clock and the 10-second count. That's the situation I'm talking about.

now if the clock were at 15 or 20 seconds possibly I can see the lead making the call but I still have to go back to scenario A who is watching the rest of the game?

If it takes somebody 15 or 20 seconds to call a 10-second violation, then shame on them. That's completely unacceptable and I would BEG my partner to help me if that were me.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

We're talking most likely about a pressing situation. So the Trail has more than just a 1-on-1 matchup to worry about. So that leave fewer than 8 other players for the Lead to watch.

You said heavy press the trail's primary match-up is the ball and the nearest defenders. The lead is responsible for the rest with some over lap, you also have the lead stationed at mid court? The lead has to be as deep as the deepest players. So if everyone is in the back court the scenario might work, but at 34 on the shot clock the Lead still needs to make he call.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Secondly, if the Lead also has too much to watch, then obviously, I'm not going to say that he/she should be clockwatching as well. But it's not that hard to look up from midcourt and see the shot clock. I would expect that -- even in a press -- the Lead would be able to sneak a peek at the shot clock to help out with the 10-seconds.

So the lead would have to be looking at - the shot clock and the position of the ball in relation to its position in the back court vs. front court and give up on all the match ups in their area. The clock better be further along than 34 seconds IMO

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

You must have missed my "two big ifs". IF you know that control was established immediately, and IF you know that the shot clock was started properly, then there's no difference between the shot clock and the 10-second count. That's the situation I'm talking about.

I am still not making the call at 34 seconds - too close I am going to give my partner a chance to make the call because that is who is designated the responsibility by the officials manuals, and if it is close I really do not want to open that can -O - worms

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

If it takes somebody 15 or 20 seconds to call a 10-second violation, then shame on them. That's completely unacceptable and I would BEG my partner to help me if that were me.

Yes I was being sarcastic, my point is this - If from the lead position YOU make a backcourt violation call at 34 seconds on the shot clock, and as the trail I have a 9 count - we have a problem.
If you make that call from the lead it better be after 12 - 13 seconds to be absolutly sure that there is a violation. We need to trust our partners to be doing their job. if you look up and the ball is clearly in the back court and the clock reads 31 then there may be an issue for you to blow your whistle. But IMHO the lead should not make a backcourt call based on the shot clock at 34 or 20 seconds because there are problems in the crew if that happens.

[Scrapper1]

First of all, you're honestly confusing the heck out of me because in the same post you're talking about the shot clock being at 34 or 31 or 24. I have no idea what you're trying to say in some places.

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

The lead is responsible for the rest with some over lap, you also have the lead stationed at mid court?

The Lead's position is irrelevant to the general question. I said midcourt, because that's generally the new Lead's starting position during a heavy press. But the Lead can sneak a peek at the shot clock from anywhere on the court. That's not really a relevant point to the conversation.

So the lead would have to be looking at - the shot clock and the position of the ball in relation to its position in the back court vs. front court and give up on all the match ups in their area. The clock better be further along than 34 seconds IMO

What does the amount of time on the clock have to do with giving up on matchups? If the pressure near the Lead is so intense that he/she CAN'T sneak a peek at the clock, then he/she shouldn't do it. I won't argue that. But having said that, it's just not that hard to take .2 seconds to look at the clock.

my point is this - If from the lead position YOU make a backcourt violation call at 34 seconds on the shot clock, and as the trail I have a 9 count - we have a problem.

With all due respect, if the shot clock started properly and if team control was established immediately, then if the shot clock shows 24 and your count is at 9, then YOU have a problem. Your count is inaccurate by almost 20%. That's the whole point of getting help from the Lead.

If you make that call from the lead it better be after 12 - 13 seconds to be absolutly sure that there is a violation. We need to trust our partners to be doing their job.

But they're NOT doing their job. That's the entire point of the conversation. The clock is telling somebody that there has been a violation, yet your partner isn't calling it. They're NOT doing their job. So SOMEBODY better do it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Why would you say this? The rule says they're allowed 10 seconds. It doesn't say that they are allowed to be in the backcourt until the official counts to 10. If you have definite knowledge that they've had control in the backcourt for 10 seconds, SOMEBODY has to call it. If the Trail is distracted by the backcourt pressure, then who else can call it? (Hint: the Lead. )

I would not advocate the Lead calling this ever. If they are calling this or looking for this, they are not watching their responsibilities. They have other things to watch and they do not know if the ball was started properly and the NCAA Casebook even has a play where the clock was not started correctly. And if the Trail is distracted, they need not be on the game. Their main job is to watch the ball count and make sure there is a violation. If they cannot do that, you do not need a Trail in this situation.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

And to answer your question about doing it without the shot clock, I would say that the shot clock simply makes it easier for the Lead to help. I would not expect the Lead to check the game clock after every made basket. It's a much harder sell to the coach without the shot clock, no doubt. I wouldn't expect help from the Lead without it. Although, if we were coming out of a time-out and the game clock showed 0:47, that would be pretty easy to explain.

This would be about as silly as a Lead calling a BC violation while on the end line.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

We're talking most likely about a pressing situation. So the Trail has more than just a 1-on-1 matchup to worry about. So that leave fewer than 8 other players for the Lead to watch. Secondly, if the Lead also has too much to watch, then obviously, I'm not going to say that he/she should be clockwatching as well. But it's not that hard to look up from midcourt and see the shot clock. I would expect that -- even in a press -- the Lead would be able to sneak a peek at the shot clock to help out with the 10-seconds.

We are just going to have to disagree on this one. I have never heard anyone at the college level advocate such craziness.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

You must have missed my "two big ifs". IF you know that control was established immediately, and IF you know that the shot clock was started properly, then there's no difference between the shot clock and the 10-second count. That's the situation I'm talking about.

If it takes somebody 15 or 20 seconds to call a 10-second violation, then shame on them. That's completely unacceptable and I would BEG my partner to help me if that were me.

Why not have other officials start calling other official's lines? After all they might have knowledge of what happen. Let us throw out all the mechanics, because officials see things they think they know?

Peace

[mutantducky]

can someone mark these down. I just want to be sure

HS
Shot Clock beings when...
10 Second count begins when...

College- Same

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

1)Team control is established, is when the shot clock should start for all situations, there is team control on an inbound in NCAA, so the clock starts on the legal touch on the floor of an inbound pass, however, the ten second count does not start until there is established player control by a team in their backcourt. So several seconds may have elapsed off the shot clock before the ball is controlled by the inbounding team in their backcourt so 24 would not be accurate as a guidline or a backcourt violation.

.

Why? There is team control and the ball is in the backcourt....the count is on. It doesn't require player control inbounds since team control began during the throwin. The shot clock and the 10 count start the moment the ball is touched and it is a violation when the clock shows 25/24 (depending on the clock).

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

can someone mark these down. I just want to be sure

HS
Shot Clock beings when...
10 Second count begins when...

College- Same

NCAA:
MEN: 10 second count begins once team control is established INBOUNDS.
Women: there is no time limit in the backcourt
For both men and women, when play is restarted with a throw-in, the shot clock starts when the ball is first touched inbounds. When play is restarted from a FT or a jumpball, the shot clock starts once a team establishes control. Following an unsuccessful try for goal, the shot clock starts once a team establishes control.

NFHS:
The backcourt count starts once team control is established.

There is no shot clock rule. A few states have instituted one on their own without the approval of the NFHS. These states have to write their own rules for the operation of the shot clock. Most of them simply follow the NCAA rule.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

First of all, you're honestly confusing the heck out of me because in the same post you're talking about the shot clock being at 34 or 31 or 24. I have no idea what you're trying to say in some places.

34 should have read 24 typing error sorry.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Why? There is team control and the ball is in the backcourt....the count is on. It doesn't require player control inbounds since team control began during the throwin. The shot clock and the 10 count start the moment the ball is touched and it is a violation when the clock shows 25/24 (depending on the clock).

what Nevada said
the count begins once team control is established inbounds that can not happen until a player from the in bound team gains control in the back court,
the shot clock however started once the ball was touched there is the difference and why 24 is not a good number in this scenario.