Did I Kick This One Tonight?

[Freddy]

A1 is an airborne shooter. His basket goes in, his feet then land on the floor, after which he makes illegal contact (not flagrant) with B1, driving B1 backwards and onto the floor.
I call the basket good, and a common foul on A1, then the ball OOB for B.
Upon locker room review, should I not have rather called an intentional foul, since A1's illegal contact occurred during a dead ball situation after the made basket?
I can't find the reference to support the correct call, other than the obvious 6-7-1. I see 10-3-7 which calls for a T, but the contact clearly was not intentional; that just doesn't seem to fit the infraction.
Isn't there a casebook sitch on this exact play? Any help?

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by Freddy

A1 is an airborne shooter. His basket goes in, his feet then land on the floor, after which he makes illegal contact (not flagrant) with B1, driving B1 backwards and onto the floor.
I call the basket good, and a common foul on A1, then the ball OOB for B.
Upon locker room review, should I not have rather called an intentional foul, since A1's illegal contact occurred during a dead ball situation after the made basket?
I can't find the reference to support the correct call, other than the obvious 6-7-1. I see 10-3-7 which calls for a T, but the contact clearly was not intentional; that just doesn't seem to fit the infraction.
Isn't there a casebook sitch on this exact play? Any help?

Sounds like a false double foul to me. I don't have my rule book, but look under rule 4 and false double fouls. I think there is one like it in that section.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by zm1283

Sounds like a false double foul to me. I don't have my rule book, but look under rule 4 and false double fouls. I think there is one like it in that section.

Not any sort of double foul, since the only foul was by A1 who made illegal contact after his shot was successful and he landed on floor again.

BTW, I recall a thread on this sitch from about a month ago. I searched for it but can't find it. If someone could just paste me the thread link, I'd be very happy to review it without expecting responses in full here.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Freddy

A1 is an airborne shooter. His basket goes in, his feet then land on the floor, after which he makes illegal contact (not flagrant) with B1, driving B1 backwards and onto the floor.

I call the basket good, and a common foul on A1, then the ball OOB for B.
Upon locker room review, should I not have rather called an intentional foul, since A1's illegal contact occurred during a dead ball situation after the made basket?

I can't find the reference to support the correct call, other than the obvious 6-7-1. I see 10-3-7 which calls for a T, but the contact clearly was not intentional; that just doesn't seem to fit the infraction.
Isn't there a casebook sitch on this exact play? Any help?

Once the ball has gone through the basket, and A has landed, and the ball is not yet at B's disposal for the subsequent throw-in, the ball is dead, and no foul can be committed by A unless intentional or flagrant.

So yes, if you wish the foul to stand, then it should have been an intentional foul. Since the ball is dead, it would have to be a technical foul. Therefore, the foul is an intentional technical foul.

It seems that you maybe should have passed on the call, since it is unlikely that A meant to knock B down. A's intent was to shoot the ball, giving no thought to what happens after s/he lands.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Not any sort of double foul, since the only foul was by A1 who made illegal contact after his shot was successful and he landed on floor again.

BTW, I recall a thread on this sitch from about a month ago. I searched for it but can't find it. If someone could just paste me the thread link, I'd be very happy to review it without expecting responses in full here.

Oh, duh. Nevermind. I didn't read it closely enough.

[deecee]

ignore the contact -- this intentional foul will be where you kicked it

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Freddy

A1 is an airborne shooter. His basket goes in, his feet then land on the floor, after which he makes illegal contact (not flagrant) with B1, driving B1 backwards and onto the floor.
I call the basket good, and a common foul on A1, then the ball OOB for B.
Upon locker room review, should I not have rather called an intentional foul, since A1's illegal contact occurred during a dead ball situation after the made basket?
I can't find the reference to support the correct call, other than the obvious 6-7-1. I see 10-3-7 which calls for a T, but the contact clearly was not intentional; that just doesn't seem to fit the infraction.
Isn't there a casebook sitch on this exact play? Any help?

Since you wrote that the contact was "not flagrant" and "clearly not intentional," I have to say that you kicked it.

After A1 lands he is no longer an airborne shooter. Since the ball passed through the basket the ball is dead. The only personal fouls that can be committed during a dead ball are those by or on an airborne shooter. Since you don't have an airborne shooter, you can't have a common foul. Any foul that you call following a made goal must adhere to this rule:

RULE 4
SECTION 19 FOUL
A foul is an infraction of the rules which is charged and is penalized.
ART. 1 . . . A personal foul is a player foul which involves illegal contact with an opponent while the ball is live, which hinders an opponent from performing normal defensive and offensive movements. A personal foul also includes contact by or on an airborne shooter when the ball is dead.

NOTE: Contact after the ball has become dead is ignored unless it is ruled intentional or flagrant or is committed by or on an airborne shooter.

But on the bright side, you now OWN this rule.

[JMUplayer]

There is was a big discussion on "at the disposal" after a made basket.

I personally don't think you can hit them with an dead ball foul in this instance.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JMUplayer

There is was a big discussion on "at the disposal" after a made basket.

I personally don't think you can hit them with an dead ball foul in this instance.

Why not? The ball is dead until the new Trail starts the 5 second count.

[Freddy]

I now know that I should probably have ignored the contact. Problem was, the way it happened, the whole gym knew that the shooter did something wrong. The conundrum that faced me is that it really didn't merit a T for an intentional illegal act. But everybody on both benches readily bought the "personal foul after the shot which was good" call that I erringly sold. Had I called a T, it would've seemed to be overkill. Had I called nothing, at least half the gym would've revolted.
On the other hand, I don't really mind calls or no-calls in spite of the lack of understanding from the benches or bleachers.
No-call would've been best. I'm happy to have had the opportunity to study the rule based on a real life situation.

[ODJ]

Originally Posted by Freddy

I now know that I should probably have ignored the contact. Problem was, the way it happened, the whole gym knew that the shooter did something wrong. The conundrum that faced me is that it really didn't merit a T for an intentional illegal act. But everybody on both benches readily bought the "personal foul after the shot which was good" call that I erringly sold. Had I called a T, it would've seemed to be overkill. Had I called nothing, at least half the gym would've revolted.
On the other hand, I don't really mind calls or no-calls in spite of the lack of understanding from the benches or bleachers.
No-call would've been best. I'm happy to have had the opportunity to study the rule based on a real life situation.

An intentional foul is not a Tech. 2 shots and ball where foul occurred. Come up with a "T" signal really would've set the bleachers on fire.

I do see the point about the ball being dead, but the click is still running, so is it really? (By rule it is, but by practice?) I think a rule revision to include a 'continuing action' provision might be helpful.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ODJ

An intentional foul is not a Tech. 2 shots and ball where foul occurred. Come up with a "T" signal really would've set the bleachers on fire.

An intentional foul can either be a technical or personal foul. And yes, the ball is dead not only by rule but also in (what should be) practice. therefore, if this foul has to be called, it should be technical (ball at division line, anyone can shoot.)

It's just like calling the Tech on the player who just got fouled and wants a piece of someone; or the push after the whistles have been blowing for a held ball. Don't worry about the spontaneous combustion that happens in the stands.