Coach Citing the Foul Counts

[mick]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

... But I remember a boys' H.S. JV summer league game, where the team that was getting blown out at half time had committed 18 fouls to its opponents 4 fouls. The losing coach came up to my partner and me and asked: "What am I supposed to tell my players about the foul totals?"

Good job, MTD, Sr..

Reminds me of a Canada Goose question.

When you see a *V* of geese, why is it that one side may be very long and the other may be very short ?

[Mark Padgett]

In my experience, the coach who complains about this is always the one who didn't buy foul insurance.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mick

Good job, MTD, Sr..

Reminds me of a Canada Goose question.

When you see a *V* of geese, why is it that one side may be very long and the other may be very short ?

Because one side has more geese in it.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Berkut

I've always wondered why the foul count is so special that it lack of balance is somehow indicative of....something?

If the score count isout of whack, does that mean someone isn't doing a good job of calling made baskets?

If one team has 5 travels, and the other only 2, does that mean something is wrong with the travel calls?

If one team gets more rebounds, is that something that the officials should address?

Why are *fouls* the one stat in the game that coaches/players/fans think *ought to be* balanced in some fashion?

To the first, it may be indicative of unintentionally or intentionally partial officiating. It's often a false positive though because it may also indicate an imbalance of playing skills.
To the second, no. This is indicative of an imbalance of offensive execution.
To the third, depends. If both teams are traveling the same amount then yes. Otherwise no.
To the fourth, depends. Are they attaining those rebounds by gaining an advantage not intended by rule?
To the fifth, fouls are on the scoreboard. Even the most casual fan can look up and notice huge imbalances. Most of those casual fans can't tell if the playing styles are imbalanced. Hence, you're likely to get grilled for the sins of lesser officials.
________
How To Roll A Joint

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Because one side has more geese in it.

A coach explained this to you?

[mick]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Because one side has more geese in it.

YU.P. [or fowls]

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Berkut

I've always wondered why the foul count is so special that it lack of balance is somehow indicative of....something?

If the score count is out of whack, does that mean someone isn't doing a good job of calling made baskets?

If one team has 5 travels, and the other only 2, does that mean something is wrong with the travel calls?

If one team gets more rebounds, is that something that the officials should address?

Why are *fouls* the one stat in the game that coaches/players/fans think *ought to be* balanced in some fashion?

Originally Posted by youngump

To the first, it may be indicative of unintentionally or intentionally partial officiating. It's often a false positive though because it may also indicate an imbalance of playing skills.
To the second, no. This is indicative of an imbalance of offensive execution.
To the third, depends. If both teams are traveling the same amount then yes. Otherwise no.
To the fourth, depends. Are they attaining those rebounds by gaining an advantage not intended by rule?
To the fifth, fouls are on the scoreboard. Even the most casual fan can look up and notice huge imbalances. Most of those casual fans can't tell if the playing styles are imbalanced. Hence, you're likely to get grilled for the sins of lesser officials.

Youngump,
I think that you are missing the point. We don't here the comment, "hey, ref, come on, the score is 10 - 2, call it even" or ""wow, we have been called for 10 travel calls and they have only be called for 2 -- let's call it both ways", or "they have outrebounded us 10 - 2 now, come on ref, even it out."

We hear about the foul imbalance because it is on the scoreboard AND/OR in the book AND, for some reason, some coaches feel as though there is some unwritten rule that indicates this one statistic should somehow be close to even during the game without regard to the circumstances within the game.

[muxbule]

Coach "Boy the foul count is 7-2 against us"
Me "Which fouls do you think you didn't deserve"

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by mick

Good job, MTD, Sr..

Reminds me of a Canada Goose question.

When you see a *V* of geese, why is it that one side may be very long and the other may be very short ?

Could they be members of the same family, and fly in a checkmark rather than a V to stay near their family?

[Adam]

GJV game last night, first half foul count was 10-1. Coach didn't say a word.

[Terrapins Fan]

I had a middle school coach ( who was losing 19-2 ) complain about the foul count at half time. He yells, 7 fouls to 2....7 fouls to 2.....shook his head and walked away.....I looked at the score board, the 2 were against his team..... They just like to complain when they are losing....

[Brad]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

some coaches feel as though there is some unwritten rule that indicates this one statistic should somehow be close to even during the game without regard to the circumstances within the game.

I think that many coaches believe that if each team is playing a similar style of defense then the fouls should be "even" ... and they may have a point. However, plenty of times the teams are playing completely differently -- with one team taking a lot of open jump shots versus the other driving to the basket a lot. Obviously, in a game like that there could be great foul count disparity and it wouldn't indicate a problem.

The main thing that I try to keep in mind is that if the foul count is 7-2 or such, don't miss an obvious foul on the team that only has 2 and don't call a cheap one on the team that has 7!

[just another ref]

Had no complaints in the game, but on the subject of foul counts: Last night's game was expected to be a huge blowout. Visitors had beat the team which beat the home team by 70. Home hung around in the first half, and trailed by single digits. Second half, visitors came out strong and won going away by about 30. Foul count for the second half: V 10 H 2

[dan74]

I had a coach point it out the other night. "We have six fouls and they have zero." They were up by four when she said it. I chaulked it up to her attempt to get us to go a bit easier on her team for the next four minutes of the half. Didn't work, though.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Brad

I think that many coaches believe that if each team is playing a similar style of defense then the fouls should be "even" ... and they may have a point. However, plenty of times the teams are playing completely differently -- with one team taking a lot of open jump shots versus the other driving to the basket a lot. Obviously, in a game like that there could be great foul count disparity and it wouldn't indicate a problem.

The main thing that I try to keep in mind is that if the foul count is 7-2 or such, don't miss an obvious foul on the team that only has 2 and don't call a cheap one on the team that has 7!

The overriding problem here is that there are so many different variables involved that it is difficult to cover them all to a coaches satisfaction. My team's very, very rarely fouled -- it was a very conscious decision on my part. There were three things I never wanted my players to do:
1. try to steal the ball from the dribbler/person holding the ball,
2. try to get a rebound when they had not earned the right by boxing out,
3. jump to try to block a shot.

My teams pressed, trapped, and played hard man-to-man defense in the half court. But, we typically made more FTs than our opponents shot. While some teams may have played the same "style" -- i.e. pressing, trapping and playing man-to-man -- they typically ended up with far more fouls because they implemented that "style" in a different manner.

While I see your point about the fouls and what to call or not call, I really don't want the number of fouls a team has to be the determining factor as to whether I call the foul or not.