counts?

[Troward]

A1 gets the rebound and is under some pressure to make an outlet pass, my backcourt count reaches 4, when he outlets the ball to the point guard A2. All of the defense now drops back and there is no pressure. A2 looks to his coach for a play call and then begins to walk the ball up the court. A2 is still in the back court, my count has reached 6, when A2 asks me "what is the back court count at?" Should the referee respond?

I have also seen this happen when a player muffs a pass and does not know whether or not he can dribble. Can he turn to the official and asks: "Do I still has my dribble?"

thanks again
GTW

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Troward
A1 gets the rebound and is under some pressure to make an outlet pass, my backcourt count reaches 4, when he outlets the ball to the point guard A2. All of the defense now drops back and there is no pressure. A2 looks to his coach for a play call and then begins to walk the ball up the court. A2 is still in the back court, my count has reached 6, when A2 asks me "what is the back court count at?" Should the referee respond?

I have also seen this happen when a player muffs a pass and does not know whether or not he can dribble. Can he turn to the official and asks: "Do I still has my dribble?"

thanks again
GTW

Sure, why not? (of course why not could include the guy's
been a pain in the @ss all game, in which case ignoring him
is just fine also )

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by Troward
Can he turn to the official and asks: "Do I still has my dribble?"
GTW

"Do I still has my dribble?" You must do a lot of public school games.

[Troward]

I had read in the BasketBall Officials guide book that if an inbounder asked you to give a verbal 5 second count you should not do this, because this gives the offensive team an advantage. There also could be a controversy as some officials start with zero, then one,then two, etc...thus giving them the full 5 seconds. If you start at one and count directly to 5 you realy are only giving them 4 seconds ie: 1) 1-2, 2) 2-3 3) 3-4 4)4-5. Whereas I tend to pause a second before starting and then start at one.

I was applying this same thinking to my question, but I guess it is different to tell the offensive player where you at in your count as opposed to counting out loud when asked. or do you guys disagree with the whole thing?

[bard]

A good question, and I'll be interested to see how some others respond to this. 2-8-9 states we are to silently and visibly count seconds for backcourt, closely guarded, etc... While I've heard officials count out loud, I don't like it. Telling the player where I am in the count borders on counting out loud, and this appears contrary to 2-8-9. I'll keep my mouth shut.

[paulis]

If a player asks a question appropriately, answer it. If someone complains, tell them "I would do the same for your team!"

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by paulis
If a player asks a question appropriately, answer it. If someone complains, tell them "I would do the same for your team!"

You are giving the throw-in Team a big advantage by doing it. You are not suppose to count out loud for that purpose. Officials should never do this under any circumstances. It is not supported by the rules or the mechanics of NF or NCAA that I am aware of. And you are allowing the Throw-in Team to avoid a turnover. Do not take the game away from the defense by doing this.

Peace

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by JRutledge

You are giving the throw-in Team a big advantage by doing it. You are not suppose to count out loud for that purpose. Officials should never do this under any circumstances. It is not supported by the rules or the mechanics of NF or NCAA that I am aware of. And you are allowing the Throw-in Team to avoid a turnover. Do not take the game away from the defense by doing this.

Peace

Isn't it as much an advantage to say "Stay on the spot"
or "you can run the endline" to the player throwing the
ball in?

BTW, I agree you should not count aloud. But when asked a
reasonable question in a reasonable manner just answer it.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Dan_ref


Isn't it as much an advantage to say "Stay on the spot"
or "you can run the endline" to the player throwing the
ball in?

Not really clear what the connection to these two different issues are? But my answer is no. Telling a player to "stay on the spot" is only telling them what kind of throw-in they have, does not mean they understand how not to violate the rule. I could consider that no different than telling a player to move after they set up in the wrong place on a FT. You are not telling them not to violate, but you are making sure that at the very beginning they understand that what they can or cannot do. Counting out loud, you are basically telling them when the ball is live, when a violation is going to occur. Telling a player "stay on the spot" is only informing them what the can and cannot do. But you are not going to tell them to "stop moving sideway, you might violate your spot throw-in."

Peace

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Not really clear what the connection to these two different issues are? But my answer is no. Telling a player to "stay on the spot" is only telling them what kind of throw-in they have, does not mean they understand how not to violate the rule. I could consider that no different than telling a player to move after they set up in the wrong place on a FT. You are not telling them not to violate, but you are making sure that at the very beginning they understand that what they can or cannot do. Counting out loud, you are basically telling them when the ball is live, when a violation is going to occur. Telling a player "stay on the spot" is only informing them what the can and cannot do. But you are not going to tell them to "stop moving sideway, you might violate your spot throw-in."

Peace

I'm not talking about counting aloud, we already agree that
it should not be done. What I'm talking about is answering
a question like: "How many seconds do I have left" in a
back court situation. If you push the whistle to the side
of your mouth and grunt "4" is only giving information, as
in your example. As is saying "stay on the spot". That's the connection. In addition, using advantage/disadvantage
as an argument to not answer questions is not consistent,
because we do it all the time.

[paulis]

Dan has the information correct. My comments had nothing to do with counting out loud. Dont we give plenty of help throughout the game? "Hands off", "Out of the Lane", "Yes, you get a new 10 second count". Sure makes the game much easier to officiate.

[bard]

Originally posted by paulis
Dan has the information correct. My comments had nothing to do with counting out loud. Dont we give plenty of help throughout the game? "Hands off", "Out of the Lane", "Yes, you get a new 10 second count". Sure makes the game much easier to officiate.

I don't see these situations as the same. If the player were asking, "Can I push this guy this hard and not get a foul? How about if I push him this hard?!?"

I see no problem with helping a player understand the rules in place in a given situation, and even offering "Hands off" advice to maintain the flow of the game. While this area is a little gray, I see a player asking me where he is in a count as asking me to count out loud and give him an advantage. The rules state that the count is to be silent.

To put this in context--if, on a 10 second count, the player asks "Where is the count?" Are you going to say, "I'm at 8 seconds."? By the time you finish saying it, you're probably at 10 or you missed chopping off the next second because you were distracted by the question. Most likely, you would just start saying your count out loud, "8...9...10." So I see this situation as counting out loud.

[paulis]

Good points! Let me take this in another direction. Do we, as officials, all count 3 or 5 or 10 seconds the same? My ten second count might be two or more seconds different than yours. I have evaluated officials whose ten second count was actually 12 and 13 seconds. I try to keep mine right at 10 so as to reward good defensive effort. Others have told me that they dont like making this call if at all possible (similar to the slow 3 second in the key count).