At the risk of making Bob Jenkins *sigh*...

[referee99]

Just trying to fill in the cracks in my understanding of Ball Location.

... NFHS rules with California modifications (shot clock):

Player A1 makes a try from near 28' mark with 1 second left on shot clock. Shot Clock horn sounds while try is in flight.

a) ball comes up short. Violation. Ball inbounded by opponents sideline near 28' mark.

b) ball is shot long, caroms off of backboard after shot clock horn sounded, but before official determined that it did not have a chance to go in. Violation. Ball inbounded by opponents on end line near the basket.

Correct?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by referee99

Just trying to fill in the cracks in my understanding of Ball Location.

... NFHS rules with California modifications (shot clock):

Player A1 makes a try from near 28' mark with 1 second left on shot clock. Shot Clock horn sounds while try is in flight.

a) ball comes up short. Violation. Ball inbounded by opponents sideline near 28' mark.

b) ball is shot long, caroms off of backboard after shot clock horn sounded, but before official determined that it did not have a chance to go in. Violation. Ball inbounded by opponents on end line near the basket.

Correct?

I have not officiated boys' or girls' H.S. basketball in California since the 19983-84 season. I lived in Glendale. The CIF used NHFS rules with a shot clock for girls' H.S. The shot clock rules were taken directly from the NAGWS Basketball Rules Book which was exactly like the FIBA shot clock rules. By this time the NCAA had taken over women's intercolliegate sports from the AIAW but had not stopped using NAGWS Basketball Rules. Since then the NCAA formed a Women's Basketball Rules Committee and it publishes its own set of rules.

I would advise you to find copies of the NCAA Men' and Women's Rules Book and Casebook. The relevant rules that you should look at are: R7-S4-A1, R7-S5-A1, and R9-S11-A2. The relevant casebook play is A.R. 208(2); this caseball play is associated with R9-S11-A2. Unfortunately, I do not think you are going to find an answer that will be helpful, because the rules only reference to the fact that the throw-in for the violation shall be a designated spot throw-in nearest the spot of the violation.

I hope this will help some.

MTD, Sr.

[OHBBREF]

sounds right,
try this thought process - the last place the ball had court position - when the shot was taken 28' line in A the horn sounds while ball is in flight yet the violation does not occur until determined the shot will not hit the rim - and the defense doesn't have posession of it.

in B the shot went up, horn sounded but it hit the backboard, giving it court status there, as soon as the ball doesn't hit the rim and it is determined the defense doesn't have it,

The ball is inbounded nearest where the last "court status" would have been.

I know that we are not talking about the true definintion of court status however this is an easy way determine inbound.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I have not officiated boys' or girls' H.S. basketball in California since the 19983-84 season.

MTD, Sr.

Back to the future!

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by referee99

Just trying to fill in the cracks in my understanding of Ball Location.

... NFHS rules with California modifications (shot clock):

Player A1 makes a try from near 28' mark with 1 second left on shot clock. Shot Clock horn sounds while try is in flight.

a) ball comes up short. Violation. Ball inbounded by opponents sideline near 28' mark.

b) ball is shot long, caroms off of backboard after shot clock horn sounded, but before official determined that it did not have a chance to go in. Violation. Ball inbounded by opponents on end line near the basket.

Correct?

The NCAA rules say that the ball is inbounded nearest where the violation occurs -- that might not be (and isn't in your examples) the same as the "ball location."

CIF rules might differ.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The NCAA rules say that the ball is inbounded nearest where the violation occurs -- that might not be (and isn't in your examples) the same as the "ball location."

CIF rules might differ.

Bob:

The question I think you and I both have is: When is the NCAA going to say that the violation occured at the spot the field goal attempt was taken? Right now, that ball is inbounded neares the spot of the violation, and for the last 35 years I have read that to mean a designated spot throw-in on the end line on either side of the free throw lane extended.

MTD, Sr.

[referee99]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The NCAA rules say that the ball is inbounded nearest where the violation occurs -- that might not be (and isn't in your examples) the same as the "ball location."

CIF rules might differ.

CIF rules state the same: "Ball is inbounded where the violation occurs."

How do we determine where the violation occurs, if not ball position?

Taking it ad absurdem (or whatever the latin is)...

Shot clock with less than 3 seconds, defensive team tips pass...
.... shot clock horn sounds while ball is in flight, as

a) A1 retrieves near division line, throws off-balance towards basket. Ball lands near FT line.

b) A1 retrieves near FT line in back court, throws off-balance towards basket. Ball lands near division line.

c A1 retrieves near end line in back court, throws off-balance towards basket. Ball lands near opponents FT line (weak player/off balance/ball slips).

In the CBOA manual there is a 'case play' where a shot misses the ring. Ball taken in on the end line. Are we taking the ball out on the end line in the above examples?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by referee99

CIF rules state the same: "Ball is inbounded where the violation occurs."

How do we determine where the violation occurs, if not ball position?

You used the term "ball position". Did you mean "Ball Location?" (note the initial caps -- meaning it's a defined term in the book).

In any event, in NCAA rules (and I'm doing this from memory) there are two causes for a shot-clock violaition:

a) Not releasing a try before the horn sounds
b) A try not striking the ring before the horn sounds.

In A, since the violation is for not releasing the ball, the inbounds spot will be near the BAll Location at the time of the horn.

In B, since the violation is not hitting the ring, the inbounds spot will be where the ball missed the ring -- in 99.99999% of the cases, that will be at the FT lane extended under the basket (you might have some case where a shot is so poor that it has no chance of entering the basket and becomes dead well before nearing the basket -- I wouldn't pick that nit in any game, I don't think).

[referee99]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

You used the term "ball position". Did you mean "Ball Location?" (note the initial caps -- meaning it's a defined term in the book).

In any event, in NCAA rules (and I'm doing this from memory) there are two causes for a shot-clock violaition:

a) Not releasing a try before the horn sounds
b) A try not striking the ring before the horn sounds.

In A, since the violation is for not releasing the ball, the inbounds spot will be near the BAll Location at the time of the horn.

In B, since the violation is not hitting the ring, the inbounds spot will be where the ball missed the ring -- in 99.99999% of the cases, that will be at the FT lane extended under the basket (you might have some case where a shot is so poor that it has no chance of entering the basket and becomes dead well before nearing the basket -- I wouldn't pick that nit in any game, I don't think).

But here is where I am confused... you chapped my hide about the simplicity of the Ball Location rule 4-4-3 in this post.
A ball which is in flight retains the same location as when it was last in contact with a player or the court.

I buy in. I own this rule now. I'm feeling good.

Now shot clock issue comes into my cranial cavity. Try in flight, horn sounds, try ends (in this case) when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful OR it hits the floor. If I blow my whistle when shot is clearly unsuccessful, say it is a foot or two short, BEFORE it contacts the floor, the violation 'occurred' where the shooter released the try, correct? I mean, coming from 4-4-3, its a no-brainer that we are inbounding near where the shooter released the try. And even if it hits the floor, the throw was clearly unsuccessful for a time between passing the height of the basket and the floor.